[News] Flyers, 76ers announce plans for new arena

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Too much wrong with this post to even bother rebutting.

I will respond to the bolded though, because it is pertinent to the conversation. Maybe you don't make spending decisions based on a total budget, but that is exactly how a city, or any similar large organization, does make spending decisions.

There is a finite budget to deal with, and multiple goals to achieve, and resources are allocated to achieve or address as many goals as possible. It's a pretty straight-forward, and very standard, process. And no, it isn't simply a case of 'this has more value than that', because the city has multiple goals that they are addressing at the same time, one of them (in this case) being the revitalization of East Village.

Again, you don’t seem interested in even attempting to understand the point or even what you’re saying (let alone what I’m saying) because your second paragraph is not only wrong, but you contradict it and your original silly “$7b” comment and make exactly the point I was making, which you just described as “too much wrong” in your last paragraph lol.

But yeah man, the budget is finite and there are multiple goals to achieve, so resources are allocated to achieve those goals, they don’t say “Well golly the budget is $7b so I guess we can buy an arena!” because… you know… the whole “achieving as many goals as possible with a finite budget” thing.

Good effort though?

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

However, the world is a little bigger and more complicated than that, and the city budget is $7B/yr so that gives us a little wiggle room to include some other things.

Yeah, absolutely. That "wiggle" room should be used for projects like the BMO Center, which the city, province and federal government split the $500million into thirds. BMO Center is expected to generate $100 million annually. The new Scotia Place in Calgary could also boost upwards of $100 million.. for the Flames.

At least they have a community rink attached to the project. Sure the $53 million price tag is more than the Flames entire upfront cost of $40 million but I can't wait to hear all the stories from members of the Calgary community skating there for free, right.. RIGHT???

The whole wiggle room point is nonsense to begin with but let's say it's true, you still shouldn't wiggle all that available room to the slick salesmen who bought you a drink and made you feel special.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Again, you don’t seem interested in even attempting to understand the point or even what you’re saying (let alone what I’m saying) because your second paragraph is not only wrong, but you contradict it and your original silly “$7b” comment and make exactly the point I was making, which you just described as “too much wrong” in your last paragraph lol.

But yeah man, the budget is finite and there are multiple goals to achieve, so resources are allocated to achieve those goals, they don’t say “Well golly the budget is $7b so I guess we can buy an arena!” because… you know… the whole “achieving as many goals as possible with a finite budget” thing.

Good effort though?

It is ironic that you keep addressing my posts by claiming I don't understand your point, when you can't even acknowledge mine - a common pattern for you. You really are insufferable.

But if you would like to expand on your YMCA point, and see if you can present something useful and pertinent, to further the conversation, instead of vainly trying to belittle other peoples' posts, please do so.

[BigThief]

The YMCA/City Recreation facility provide value to the community at a discounted rate. The Scotiabank Arenaplace, won't, with higher prices.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Yeah, absolutely. That "wiggle" room should be used for projects like the BMO Center, which the city, province and federal government split the $500million into thirds. BMO Center is expected to generate $100 million annually. The new Scotia Place in Calgary could also boost upwards of $100 million.. for the Flames.

At least they have a community rink attached to the project. Sure the $53 million price tag is more than the Flames entire upfront cost of $40 million but I can't wait to hear all the stories from members of the Calgary community skating there for free, right.. RIGHT???

The whole wiggle room point is nonsense to begin with but let's say it's true, you still shouldn't wiggle all that available room to the slick salesmen who bought you a drink and made you feel special.

It's been explained many times in this thread, but it isn't an either/or situation. The city is capable of funding multiple things at once. And the arena serves to further the East Village revitalization, which has value, beyond the $17M/yr that the city will receive in revenues (which drastically reduce the overall cost to the city, not that any of you want to hear it).

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BigThief

The YMCA/City Recreation facility provide value to the community at a discounted rate. The Scotiabank Arenaplace, won't, with higher prices.

That's just wrong. You can believe what you want, but it's wrong.

[BigThief]

Oh, I wasn't aware I'm wrong. The new arena with its public funding will operate similar to a recreation facility, public library or transit system with an open policy for members of the public? Will I be able to sign up for a free community rink pass like I can for the library system as well? The Fair Entry program being also applying to this project is awesome. Hopefully the sign up process is in advance so those low income citizens among us get to enjoy what we've all paid for. Seeing those less fortunate among us being able to take the transit to and from the game then gain fair access to see the Flames is just.. well it melts my cold heart.

This is great news. Thank you once again Enoch Root for not completely missing another obvious point.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Oh, I wasn't aware I'm wrong. The new arena with its public funding will operate similar to a recreation facility, public library or transit system with an open policy for members of the public? Will I be able to sign up for a free community rink pass like I can for the library system as well? The Fair Entry program being also applying to this project is awesome. Hopefully the sign up process is in advance so those low income citizens among us get to enjoy what we've all paid for. Seeing those less fortunate among us being able to take the transit to and from the game then gain fair access to see the Flames is just.. well it melts my cold heart.

This is great news. Thank you once again Enoch Root for not completely missing another obvious point.

Good God.

Your statement was "The YMCA/City Recreation facility provide value to the community... The Scotiabank Arenaplace, won't" But the arena will provide benefits to the community, including revitalization, and a center for events. So the statement was wrong.

Your going on a rant and trying to define the terms of what community benefit is, does not change that. But knock yourself out, I'm done with this.

[BigThief]

..."AT A DISCOUNTED RATE", you quoted my post once, then did it again removing that piece. Learn to f'n read or quote or both

[cam_wmh]

Lol

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Good God.

Your statement was "The YMCA/City Recreation facility provide value to the community... The Scotiabank Arenaplace, won't" But the arena will provide benefits to the community, including revitalization, and a center for events. So the statement was wrong.

Your going on a rant and trying to define the terms of what community benefit is, does not change that. But knock yourself out, I'm done with this.

Wait, the new arena is going to provide revitalization (even though it's right beside the current Saddledome) AND a centre for events (that you have to pay a lot of money for)? Wow, sign me up for hundreds of millions of citizens money!!!!

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Wait, the new arena is going to provide revitalization (even though it's right beside the current Saddledome) AND a centre for events (that you have to pay a lot of money for)? Wow, sign me up for hundreds of millions of citizens money!!!!

It’s going to revitalize the parking lot that it was on and then they’ll be able to turn the Saddledome into a parking lot.

It will also provide events, something the Saddledome is unable to do. Just last month I attempted to go to a Flames game and they said “no, sorry, there is no place for events.” It was a real shame.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is ironic that you keep addressing my posts by claiming I don't understand your point, when you can't even acknowledge mine - a common pattern for you. You really are insufferable.

But if you would like to expand on your YMCA point, and see if you can present something useful and pertinent, to further the conversation, instead of vainly trying to belittle other peoples' posts, please do so.

People were having a normal, polite conversation before you came in with random, condescending comments alluding to made up comparisons between YMCA/NHL entertainment values and how complex the world is. You find people insufferable because they give back to you what you put out.

You’re welcome to start again and just assume people know the basics. Yes, we all know the city can spend more on more than one thing. But, as you acknowledged which had already been pointing out, the budget IS finite and there are MANY things which need funding. Not everything gets funding, or the level of funding it truly needs. So questions over whether some projects make more financial sense or have more community value matter. That’s also part of how these decisions are made.

Anyway. The point is the YMCA comparison was one of access, not entertainment. You can disagree, but it’s reasonable for people to prefer more accessible, better contributions to society than what a pro-sports arena can provide. Especially when the very limited benefits a pro-sports arena can provide are already being provided to the fullest extent.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People were having a normal, polite conversation before you came in with random, condescending comments alluding to made up comparisons between YMCA/NHL entertainment values and how complex the world is. You find people insufferable because they give back to you what you put out.

You’re welcome to start again and just assume people know the basics. Yes, we all know the city can spend more on more than one thing. But, as you acknowledged which had already been pointing out, the budget IS finite and there are MANY things which need funding. Not everything gets funding, or the level of funding it truly needs. So questions over whether some projects make more financial sense or have more community value matter. That’s also part of how these decisions are made.

Anyway. The point is the YMCA comparison was one of access, not entertainment. You can disagree, but it’s reasonable for people to prefer more accessible, better contributions to society than what a pro-sports arena can provide. Especially when the very limited benefits a pro-sports arena can provide are already being provided to the fullest extent.

Yes, the YMCA is about access, which is great, and the values inherent in the YMCA are indisputable. The values inherent in an arena are different, less direct, and not about access, and thus not really comparable to a YMCA. Which was my original point.

People will assign different levels of value to an arena, of course, and some will place little or none upon it, which is fine. You don't feel a new arena is necessary, but the fact that others do doesn't make them wrong, or inherently bad humans. And you feel the Dome still fulfils it's role 'to the fullest extent', which others disagree with, but certainly warrants debate.

My original post was simply making the point that I think comparisons to the YMCA aren't what the debate should be about (because I think there is plenty of room for both, their purposes are different, and the either/or argument gets nowhere).

You can - and obviously do - disagree with that. But the escalation (and what you read into my post) is on you.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And a new building will help immensely, too.

That's exactly my point. A new building should technically, theoretically help.

An upgrade to the off ice product with the on ice being equal should bring more people to be interested in attending the games.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

That's exactly my point. A new building should technically, theoretically help.

An upgrade to the off ice product with the on ice being equal should bring more people to be interested in attending the games.

If the on ice product stays the same, the quality of the “experience” (bathrooms?) goes up, and the tickets go up $50 each to match, I’d imagine they’d be lucky to attract the same number of people.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

That's exactly my point. A new building should technically, theoretically help.

An upgrade to the off ice product with the on ice being equal should bring more people to be interested in attending the games.

So it's a good investment for taxpayers to subsidize the billionaire's arena to the tune of 300M+ just so we can get an extra 1,000 fans inside? The new arena is going to be 18,000 seater and Flames current average attendance is over 17,000.

Why doesn't the billionaire spend his own money to attract that extra 1000 people?

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The fact that they currently don't sell out does not infer that they can't sell out. As soon as the team is competitive, and in the playoffs, it's a safe bet that the arena will be full again.

And a new building will help immensely, too.

I agree, a new building will help immensely.

I mean, 2018-19 the Flames were second overall in the NHL with 107 points but were still a fair bit short of capacity at 18,501 (compared to that 2006-2016 stretch).

[Erick Estrada]

Boy did this thread ever get sidetracked.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

I agree, a new building will help immensely.

I mean, 2018-19 the Flames were second overall in the NHL with 107 points but were still a fair bit short of capacity at 18,501 (compared to that 2006-2016 stretch).

Yeah, as a STH, I think I would probably have cancelled already, if there weren't a new arena pending. Anecdotal, obviously, but I have spoken with others that feel the same way.