[News] Flyers, 76ers announce plans for new arena

[marsplasticeraser]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

The saddledome is 42 years old. There is unanimous agreement that it was ready to be replaced 10 years ago as the Flames have been looking to build a new building since the late 2000s.
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No there wasn't unanimous agreement.

The Flames were unwilling to pay for a new arena, but were happy to take one for free.

If the Flames felt they needed a new arena they would have been willing to pay for it.

To put this into something we can understand: Most people don't tear down 30 or 40-year old homes. They do renovate them though. For example, my home is 55 years old. It's in wonderful shape, and had a big reno 15 years ago and I do regular maintenance. I will need a new kitchen and master washroom in 5 years, and it will make it to 75 years old in great shape.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

No there wasn't unanimous agreement.

The Flames were unwilling to pay for a new arena, but were happy to take one for free.

If the Flames felt they needed a new arena they would have been willing to pay for it.

To put this into something we can understand: Most people don't tear down 30 or 40-year old homes. They do renovate them though. For example, my home is 55 years old. It's in wonderful shape, and had a big reno 15 years ago and I do regular maintenance. I will need a new kitchen and master washroom in 5 years, and it will make it to 75 years old in great shape.

Are you charging people to be entertained in your home? Totally different expectations. Look what's happening with the Stampeders as people just don't want to go to McMahon stadium anymore and the organization is dying a slow death.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Are you charging people to be entertained in your home? Totally different expectations. Look what's happening with the Stampeders as people just don't want to go to McMahon stadium anymore and the organization is dying a slow death.

Agree.

Equating the economics of sports entertainment to personal property home renovations and trying to draw conclusions is so off base.

The Flames are a business. They sell an off ice product which is significantly below market comparatives. Forget about the on ice product for a minute. Do you enjoy going to the Saddledome? I sure don't.

EDIT:

I grew up watching the CFL religiously as it was a fun thing to do in the summer. I attended many CFL games too. In the past 5 years, I have gone to ZERO games and maybe watched one game on TV. Their (Stamps) product offering stinks. And I think I stopped watching on TV because I stopped attending games in person and I stopped going in person because McMahon is even worse than the Saddledome. That's what happens when you don't upgrade stadiums. The teams die. Fans don't want to attend. Players don't want to stay. Sponsors don't want to pay. It's a self-fulfilling circle of doom.

[PepsiFree]

I enjoy going to the Saddledome. It’s fun and the building is cool.

[CroFlames]

I think you guys are both wrong. The popularity of the NFL north of the border is what is killing the CFL. Old CFL fans are dying off, and there are no new ones. The CFL refuses to adopt NFL rules. Everyone follows the NFL.

By your guys' logic, BC Place should be jam packed every week with sponsors hurling cash at them. Same with Mosaic and Princess Auto Stadium.

I am a traditional sports fan, and I go for the sports. I just want fast beer lines, fast pee lines, and fast ingress and egress lines.

[kevman]

Well Winnipeg and Saskatchewan led the league in attendance last year but it's not because their stadiums are the nicest, it's because there's nothing else to do there.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I think you guys are both wrong. The popularity of the NFL north of the border is what is killing the CFL. Old CFL fans are dying off, and there are no new ones. The CFL refuses to adopt NFL rules. Everyone follows the NFL.

By your guys' logic, BC Place should be jam packed every week with sponsors hurling cash at them. Same with Mosaic and Princess Auto Stadium.

I am a traditional sports fan, and I go for the sports. I just want fast beer lines, fast pee lines, and fast ingress and egress lines.

You make it sound like the NFL just became popular. It's been massively popular forever and the CFL has always co-existed. The CFL is actually drawing very good TV ratings and attendance for the most part has been flat so the league is more or less the same as it's ever been but the Stampeders attendance has been steadily eroding over the last 15 years even though they were still fielding a winning team for the majority of those years.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I am a traditional sports fan, and I go for the sports. I just want fast beer lines, fast pee lines, and fast ingress and egress lines.

You're in the minority imo.

I go to sports events as a treat. An evening out. With colleagues, clients, friends, family etc. The amenities are very important. You can't control the score on the ice but you can sure deliver an excellent experience off ice. When you're hosting or going as part of a larger group which isn't just a boys night out - its pretty difficult at the Saddledome outside of getting a box. Even then - those are pretty mediocre.

There are plenty of people that have turned down an invitation to go to the game. There's other venues/restaurants in Calgary that are winning out with the $$$ allocation than Flames games. More and more people accept/choose to go to a nice steak dinner than go to a Flames game.

Ask the STHs - some of them may have experienced a difficulty giving tickets away even. It's not just the hockey team is bad. If the Saddledome was a happening place where it's cool and fun to "hang out"- more people would go just if there were more restaurant/bar offerings. You'd be surprised at how many people go if you create that "neighborhood" environment.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

You're in the minority imo.

I go to sports events as a treat. An evening out. With colleagues, clients, friends, family etc. The amenities are very important. You can't control the score on the ice but you can sure deliver an excellent experience off ice. When you're hosting or going as part of a larger group which isn't just a boys night out - its pretty difficult at the Saddledome outside of getting a box. Even then - those are pretty mediocre.

There are plenty of people that have turned down an invitation to go to the game. There's other venues/restaurants in Calgary that are winning out with the $$$ allocation than Flames games. More and more people accept/choose to go to a nice steak dinner than go to a Flames game.

Ask the STHs - some of them may have experienced a difficulty giving tickets away even. It's not just the hockey team is bad. If the Saddledome was a happening place where it's cool and fun to "hang out"- more people would go just if there were more restaurant/bar offerings. You'd be surprised at how many people go if you create that "neighborhood" environment.

The Flames do not have an attendance problem, if that is what you are getting at.

[Enoch Root]

People are comparing the YMCA to an NHL game? Yes, very comparable entertainment.

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

The Flames were unwilling to pay for a new arena, but were happy to take one for free.

Math is hard, but it isn't that hard.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

People are comparing the YMCA to an NHL game? Yes, very comparable entertainment.

Nobody is comparing them in terms as subjective as entertainment value. But I’m not sure proponents of public spending on an arena really want to go down the path of comparing the societal value of things like a YMCA or a library to something like a pro-hockey arena, so I might just leave that one alone if I were you.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You make it sound like the NFL just became popular. It's been massively popular forever and the CFL has always co-existed. The CFL is actually drawing very good TV ratings and attendance for the most part has been flat so the league is more or less the same as it's ever been but the Stampeders attendance has been steadily eroding over the last 15 years even though they were still fielding a winning team for the majority of those years.

Not to mention players leaving and trashing us for having embarrassing facilities for pro athletes.

Having a facility that players can hang out, eat, workout in a real gym, has space will make a difference with attracting and retaining players.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

People are comparing the YMCA to an NHL game? Yes, very comparable entertainment.
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You're confused about who made the point and why they did.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I enjoy going to the Saddledome. It’s fun and the building is cool.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Not to mention players leaving and trashing us for having embarrassing facilities for pro athletes.

Having a facility that players can hang out, eat, workout in a real gym, has space will make a difference with attracting and retaining players.

The Calgary Flames organization need and want this arena more than the City of Calgary and its citizens do, no one has ever argued that. A private company should provide those things for their employees if it's so embarrassing. Local and provincial government shouldn't be footing the bill.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nobody is comparing them in terms as subjective as entertainment value. But I’m not sure proponents of public spending on an arena really want to go down the path of comparing the societal value of things like a YMCA or a library to something like a pro-hockey arena, so I might just leave that one alone if I were you.

Or, we can accept that not all things are equal, with respect to societal value, but we still want them. Otherwise, if we are going to do the comparison game every time, we will basically be down to schools and hospitals.

However, the world is a little bigger and more complicated than that, and the city budget is $7B/yr so that gives us a little wiggle room to include some other things.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BigThief

You're confused about who made the point and why they did.

I don't think I am, but thanks

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

The Flames do not have an attendance problem, if that is what you are getting at.

The Flames were relatively sold out 2006 - 2016 - 19,000+

They're now around 17,500 - out of which I doubt they get that figure most nights. Tickets sold does not equal attendance.

https://flamesnation.ca/news/poor-at...mes-higher-ups

City of Calgary Population

2006: 1.1 million
2024: 1.7 million

Currently, in a city of 1.7 million people in Canada, they can't sell out. They sold out for 10 years in a city with a much smaller population.

The Flames definitely have an attendance problem.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

The Flames were relatively sold out 2006 - 2016 - 19,000+

They're now around 17,500 - out of which I doubt they get that figure most nights. Tickets sold does not equal attendance.

https://flamesnation.ca/news/poor-at...mes-higher-ups

City of Calgary Population

2006: 1.1 million
2024: 1.7 million

Currently, in a city of 1.7 million people in Canada, they can't sell out. They sold out for 10 years in a city with a much smaller population.

The Flames definitely have an attendance problem.

The fact that they currently don't sell out does not infer that they can't sell out. As soon as the team is competitive, and in the playoffs, it's a safe bet that the arena will be full again.

And a new building will help immensely, too.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Or, we can accept that not all things are equal, with respect to societal value, but we still want them. Otherwise, if we are going to do the comparison game every time, we will basically be down to schools and hospitals.

However, the world is a little bigger and more complicated than that, and the city budget is $7B/yr so that gives us a little wiggle room to include some other things.

You’re the one who wanted to dumb the conversation down to entertainment value, so I’m not sure why you’re now saying the world is more complicated. I get that you wanted to go there to land your weird attempt at being condescending, but it was never in question.

The city budget is $7B. Great. But outside of people who are genuinely terrible with their money, nobody makes spending decisions based on their total budget. That’s like saying you bought a new computer because “you could afford to” and then it turns out you asked your dad for money, saved a bit because you decided not to go to the dentist this year, and put the rest on credit.

But BigThief is right, you seem to be missing the point entirely, because the fact that “people want it” and “there’s wiggle room in the city budget” has really nothing to do with what was being discussed and, at best, proves the point you’re trying to dispute.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You’re the one who wanted to dumb the conversation down to entertainment value, so I’m not sure why you’re now saying the world is more complicated. I get that you wanted to go there to land your weird attempt at being condescending, but it was never in question.

The city budget is $7B. Great. But outside of people who are genuinely terrible with their money, nobody makes spending decisions based on their total budget. That’s like saying you bought a new computer because “you could afford to” and then it turns out you asked your dad for money, saved a bit because you decided not to go to the dentist this year, and put the rest on credit.

But BigThief is right, you seem to be missing the point entirely, because the fact that “people want it” and “there’s wiggle room in the city budget” has really nothing to do with what was being discussed and, at best, proves the point you’re trying to dispute.

Too much wrong with this post to even bother rebutting.

I will respond to the bolded though, because it is pertinent to the conversation. Maybe you don't make spending decisions based on a total budget, but that is exactly how a city, or any similar large organization, does make spending decisions.

There is a finite budget to deal with, and multiple goals to achieve, and resources are allocated to achieve or address as many goals as possible. It's a pretty straight-forward, and very standard, process. And no, it isn't simply a case of 'this has more value than that', because the city has multiple goals that they are addressing at the same time, one of them (in this case) being the revitalization of East Village.