[Trade] Toffoli to Flames for 2022 1st *, 2023 5th, Heineman, and Pitlick

[GioforPM]

Here's a list of posters who I remember complained that Heineman was traded.

[BigThief]

Same list of people actually complain about it. The sensitivity.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

right move at the time

No trade that only considers a point in time is ever going to be a good trade.

[Geeoff]

Congrats on Flames legend Heineman for scoring some goals in the NHL!

[Redrum]

That sucks, The Flames are really hurting for bottom 6 LWers. Gotta stop bleeding these superstars.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Here's a list of posters who I remember complained that Heineman was traded.

There were a couple people on page 1 actually...Monahammer and Devo22

I said I liked him but was okay with the deal as a whole.

I don't think may people were livid about it, but there were some people that thought the player had some potential.

[Roof-Daddy]

It's the internet, there is always somebody complaining.

You could watch a reel of a kitten licking a babies cheek and someone would be in the comments complaining that the baby might be allergic to kittens.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If you think Heineman is comparable to Coleman, I don't know what to say to you.

You're right. I should add some context to my comment.

They are not comparable players. However, they can both play LW on the 3rd line. One is over 30, and the other is 23yrs old. In my opinion the 3rd line checking role is extremely replaceable. We should have no veterans over 30 in the bottom 6 unless we're a top contending team.

So my comment is more around the fact that Coleman's role on the team shouldn't exist, and I can take his salary and bank it for our financially focused owner. If I run an efficient P&L, then maybe I can use those extra funds for retention, or give them to a top 6 player to make up for the tax difference between Alberta and some of the tax free states.

An added bonus of giving a 23yr old a shot over a >30yr old player, is that he may pop, and create an asset for me. The over 30 player is a known commodity and will be judge on his body of work. Considering we got Coleman as an UFA, well he's likely close to fair value, and I'll have a lower probability of creating asset value.

TLDR: Coleman helps us win an extra 4pts a season over a 23yr old that doesn't play well. If we get a 23yr old that does play well, that's a great bonus and the points above replacement value will be closer.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I might be wrong, but I remember Heineman being upset about the trade to Calgary and not wanting to play there. Might be misremembering though.

Word was he didn't want to sign with us.

So we could have traded him or just kept him and let him walk and added someone like Pelts in the deal.

[blankall]

The Montreal media and fanbase goes crazy every time a player, in their totally defensively irresponsible system, goes on a hot streak.

I remember the exact same thing happening with Paul Byron. He was also not a huge loss, and Montreal ended up overpaying him because of that hot streak.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

You're right. I should add some context to my comment.

They are not comparable players. However, they can both play LW on the 3rd line. One is over 30, and the other is 23yrs old. In my opinion the 3rd line checking role is extremely replaceable. We should have no veterans over 30 in the bottom 6 unless we're a top contending team.

.

I think part of it is that Coleman is not really a 3rd line LWer. The Flames don't have a lot of separation between their top 3 lines. But amongst forwards Coleman is 5th in total ice time. Last year he was 6th, with the difference being that Lindholm is now gone. The rest of the top 5 is the same. So this is a top 6 forward who plays in all situations, and averages over 17 minutes a night, including the toughest match-ups.

Heineman is 13th in ice time for the Habs, playing 11 minutes, and a more sheltered role. As you would expect.

So yes both CAN play 3rd line LW I guess, but Coleman does way more than that for the Flames.

I also think sometimes we don't put enough value against how many young players get time on the Backlund line, including with Glencross, and how that seems to really help their development. This season we are seeing it with Coronato, but many of of the Flames younger players, spend time on that line, and emerge better players.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It's the internet, there is always somebody complaining.

You could watch a reel of a kitten licking a babies cheek and someone would be in the comments complaining that the baby might be allergic to kittens.

more likely toxoplasmosis

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by blankall

The Montreal media and fanbase goes crazy every time a player, in their totally defensively irresponsible system, goes on a hot streak. ]

lmao so do we. Some Calgary Flames were hard for signing Kuzmenko to an extension last year and were shocked when others weren't.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

You're right. I should add some context to my comment.

They are not comparable players. However, they can both play LW on the 3rd line. One is over 30, and the other is 23yrs old. In my opinion the 3rd line checking role is extremely replaceable. We should have no veterans over 30 in the bottom 6 unless we're a top contending team.

So my comment is more around the fact that Coleman's role on the team shouldn't exist, and I can take his salary and bank it for our financially focused owner. If I run an efficient P&L, then maybe I can use those extra funds for retention, or give them to a top 6 player to make up for the tax difference between Alberta and some of the tax free states.

An added bonus of giving a 23yr old a shot over a >30yr old player, is that he may pop, and create an asset for me. The over 30 player is a known commodity and will be judge on his body of work. Considering we got Coleman as an UFA, well he's likely close to fair value, and I'll have a lower probability of creating asset value.

TLDR: Coleman helps us win an extra 4pts a season over a 23yr old that doesn't play well. If we get a 23yr old that does play well, that's a great bonus and the points above replacement value will be closer.

Coleman is also a great leader and role model - his presence in the locker room and on the bench provides a lot of value for the 23 year olds to learn from.

You also have to hit the cap floor - this idea that you shouldn't have any 30 year olds unless you're actually contending is short-sited and one-dimensional.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Coleman is also a great leader and role model - his presence in the locker room and on the bench provides a lot of value for the 23 year olds to learn from.

You also have to hit the cap floor - this idea that you shouldn't have any 30 year olds unless you're actually contending is short-sited and one-dimensional.

I agree with your analysis. My question would be, how many mentors do we need?

If we had one at each position:
1. Top 6 Center: Kadri
2. Top 6 Winger: Huberdeau
3. Bottom 6 Center: Backlund
4. Bottom 6 Winger: Coleman
5. Top 4 Dman Scoring: Weegar
6. Top 4 Dman Shutdown: ?
7. Goaltending: ?

Again, I just don't value Coleman on a rebuilding team. I guess we disagree.

Personally I think we need a top 6 fwd, a bottom 6 fwd and a top 4 d in our leadership group. That's 3 people. I'd kick in an extra 4th player if they had a particular skill like running a pp, or scoring skill, but checking / faceoffs is something I feel can be handled by the coaching staff that typically have those backgrounds.

As for getting to the cap floor, I agree again, but it's always easier to spend money than save it. PTOs, take on bad money, etc...

[Bonded]

Toffoli wasn’t acquired to be on a rebuilding team and neither was Coleman. Sure, on this version of the team you might take Heineman over Coleman but you definitely don’t on a playoff team

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

I agree with your analysis. My question would be, how many mentors do we need?

If we had one at each position:
1. Top 6 Center: Kadri
2. Top 6 Winger: Huberdeau
3. Bottom 6 Center: Backlund
4. Bottom 6 Winger: Coleman
5. Top 4 Dman Scoring: Weegar
6. Top 4 Dman Shutdown: ?
7. Goaltending: ?

Again, I just don't value Coleman on a rebuilding team. I guess we disagree.

Personally I think we need a top 6 fwd, a bottom 6 fwd and a top 4 d in our leadership group. That's 3 people. I'd kick in an extra 4th player if they had a particular skill like running a pp, or scoring skill, but checking / faceoffs is something I feel can be handled by the coaching staff that typically have those backgrounds.

As for getting to the cap floor, I agree again, but it's always easier to spend money than save it. PTOs, take on bad money, etc...

Yes, we still need some players - Heineman isn't one of them. He's basically Pelletier on a hot streak. What is your point here? Do you think another mediocre 3rd line winger (at best) is going to have any impact on our rebuild?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Toffoli wasn’t acquired to be on a rebuilding team and neither was Coleman. Sure, on this version of the team you might take Heineman over Coleman but you definitely don’t on a playoff team

You don't EVER take Heineman over Coleman. It isn't even a discussion (or shouldn't be)

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, we still need some players - Heineman isn't one of them. He's basically Pelletier on a hot streak. What is your point here? Do you think another mediocre 3rd line winger (at best) is going to have any impact on our rebuild?

Yes.

While I can see where you are coming from with your comments about Heineman, I mean we don't really know how his career will end up with certainty.

My argument is Coleman takes up valuable cap space and a roster spot where we can roll the dice on emerging players to see how they look above the AHL for longer than a few games. Players like Heineman. For Coleman I view his leadership and mentorship as redundant, and there are other ways to reach the cap floor.

[Red_Baron]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

My argument is Coleman takes up valuable cap space and a roster spot where we can roll the dice on emerging players to see how they look above the AHL for longer than a few games. Players like Heineman. For Coleman I view his leadership and mentorship as redundant, and there are other ways to reach the cap floor.

Like what? An LTIRetiree still takes up one of your contract spots and provides nothing.

Sure, we could use some salary retention spots but we still have plenty of cap room to do that with so that isn't a sound reason either.


Why do you feel that Coleman's leadership is redundant? Is there nothing that can be learned from a player like Coleman? From the stuff I hear, he is exacty the type of leader you want on your team.