You Know What Really Grinds My Gears? Now with 3x more gears...

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Yeah, but the furnace is still reparable. It’s not like you buy a furnace and the whole thing needs to be replaced, which seems to be the gist of complaints.

According to my furnace guy, for some furnaces the cost of replacing the motor is more than the cost of installing a new furnace.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I am just questioning why you are bringing up a hot water tank that was never mentioned.

Anyway, your’s is a sweeping statement. Stuff still lasts if you properly maintain it and don’t buy the cheapest thing possible.

There has been crap made all the time. You’re just imagining the past through some rose-coloured glasses.

His quote was that his house is from 2017 and not that old yet he has issues occurring now that aren't expected. Given the age of the house, I am suspecting his hot water tank may be nearing EOL as would a lot of appliances.

This is a systemic corporate strategy that has been deployed across the board to continue to extract more and more dollars from consumers. This goes for virtually all businesses and industries. Things have gotten so bad that the EU recently passed laws stating that appliance manufactures were required to have parts available for 10 years post new model introduction. The old game of selling a 2000 Euro fridge and not having a part 4 years later proved old.

I am not some old guy who thinks of the good old days, I am in my 30's but I've seen what happens with things. As soon as you see how things have been engineered to actual break down on purpose, the sooner you realize how badly we are being taken advantage of.

An old is gold strategy for a lot of things really does apply from a cost perspective. Some things may be more energy efficient but cost significantly more from a repair and maintenance perspective. We are not that far removed from men doing a lot of repairs on their own cars in their garage to modern day mechanic shops (not dealers) not being able to afford some of the newer software systems cause of costs. Some of the diagnostic tools for new cars today will run a basic shop a couple hundred grand to keep up to date for a couple of years.

People will argue the above points constantly with me but corporate executives brag about it on earnings calls. They literally provide financial guidance & hard numbers to back up what they are doing. "New product introductions and innovation resulted in hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue increases and upgrade cycles. Changes in X product has resulted in an ARPU increase of X"

[WideReceiver]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Hot water tanks have barely changed over the decades, flush tank annually, change anode every 5-7 years or buy a powered anode and the thing will last forever.

Yes

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by curves2000

His quote was that his house is from 2017 and not that old yet he has issues occurring now that aren't expected. Given the age of the house, I am suspecting his hot water tank may be nearing EOL as would a lot of appliances.

This is a systemic corporate strategy that has been deployed across the board to continue to extract more and more dollars from consumers. This goes for virtually all businesses and industries. Things have gotten so bad that the EU recently passed laws stating that appliance manufactures were required to have parts available for 10 years post new model introduction. The old game of selling a 2000 Euro fridge and not having a part 4 years later proved old.

Mid-efficiency gas furnaces are banned in Canada. They are a simple, reliable technology.

High-efficiency gas furnaces are the only choice. Their technology is fairly new.

Your assessment of hot water tanks is a lark.

But I'm sure they'll be banned soon enough if the LPC remain in power.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by GGG

Have you had the heat exchanger inspected regularly? Cracked heat exchangers on old furnaces is a very common end mode of failure and it can lead to carbon monoxide in your house.

I kinda over did the "I can't recall last service". I had Keith from My Furnace Guy out less than 2 years ago and I also have ATCO Gas doing inspections annually. I actually can't recall the last official service or part that needed to be replaced. All the heating contractors say the same thing, keep it until it dies as long as you know it burns a lot of natural gas. It isn't very efficient but it puts out actually really warm air.

[GGG]

One thing curves is not considering is inflation. It has never been cheaper to buy these things.

Here’s a neat site to look at in 1980 in USD. 299 for a kenmore electric range with coils. And 500-650 for a 17 cubic foot kenmore fridge. I can get a similar electric coil range for $700. 1$ is about $4 today plus whatever you want to use for exchange rate and that stove is half the cost. So it can last half as long and still be the same deal

Fridges you can get for the same price in today’s dollars.

Appliances are so cheap today for similar product features you used to get.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by GGG

One thing curves is not considering is inflation. It has never been cheaper to buy these things.

Here’s a neat site to look at in 1980 in USD. 299 for a kenmore electric range with coils. And 500-650 for a 17 cubic foot kenmore fridge. I can get a similar electric coil range for $700. 1$ is about $4 today plus whatever you want to use for exchange rate and that stove is half the cost. So it can last half as long and still be the same deal

Fridges you can get for the same price in today’s dollars.

Appliances are so cheap today for similar product features you used to get.

Without a doubt that certain things are overall cheaper these days and they don't last. That bad cycle results in people spending more money in their lifetime on items. Quality isn't there and things are engineered differently to extract more money.

This isn't just an appliance thing, it's for everything. Think of the old Honda and Toyota's that went 500k+ km's with very little actual repair costs outside of light maintenance, a lot of which people could do themselves or for cheap. Try spending chump change on a 2025 Honda or Toyota for the next 15-20 years. A windshield and key fob may run close to $2k

I just don't know if in today's environment, it's Joe Consumer who's really the #1 beneficiary of all this stuff. If people actually run the numbers and see what these things are really costing them and how much more it's costing than before, it becomes an eye opener.

Edit: It's not just cheap things that don't last these days, it's the expensive things as well. Expensive clothing, electronics, appliances, cars and more are just not built to high quality standards to what they used to be. $2000 mobile phones that have a cracked screen when dropped with a case on carpet? $1000 dress shoes with rubber soles (grandson of a custom shoemaker, this GMG's) $1500 suits that are glued and not hand sewn with horsehair reinforcements in the jacket.

I think we are being railroaded and it's getting harder and harder to push back as consumers

[PepsiFree]

My phone cost less than $2000, I’ve had it for several years, and I drop it on average once a week and it’s never cracked.

I also don’t have one of those hideous old man otter box cases.

[Wormius]

These are the same things being said since forever. People in the 70s complaining about their cars, then the 80s, and so on.

[RichieRich]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I kinda over did the "I can't recall last service". I had Keith from My Furnace Guy out less than 2 years ago and I also have ATCO Gas doing inspections annually. I actually can't recall the last official service or part that needed to be replaced. All the heating contractors say the same thing, keep it until it dies as long as you know it burns a lot of natural gas. It isn't very efficient but it puts out actually really warm air.

I have to give a positive shout out to Keith’s team. Helped me out immensely, twice. Recommended.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Without a doubt that certain things are overall cheaper these days and they don't last. That bad cycle results in people spending more money in their lifetime on items. Quality isn't there and things are engineered differently to extract more money.

This isn't just an appliance thing, it's for everything. Think of the old Honda and Toyota's that went 500k+ km's with very little actual repair costs outside of light maintenance, a lot of which people could do themselves or for cheap. Try spending chump change on a 2025 Honda or Toyota for the next 15-20 years. A windshield and key fob may run close to $2k

I just don't know if in today's environment, it's Joe Consumer who's really the #1 beneficiary of all this stuff. If people actually run the numbers and see what these things are really costing them and how much more it's costing than before, it becomes an eye opener.

Edit: It's not just cheap things that don't last these days, it's the expensive things as well. Expensive clothing, electronics, appliances, cars and more are just not built to high quality standards to what they used to be. $2000 mobile phones that have a cracked screen when dropped with a case on carpet? $1000 dress shoes with rubber soles (grandson of a custom shoemaker, this GMG's) $1500 suits that are glued and not hand sewn with horsehair reinforcements in the jacket.

I think we are being railroaded and it's getting harder and harder to push back as consumers

I disagree it’s more expensive. Think about a fridge that is four times as expensive. It has to last 4 times as long not considering the time value of money. A fridge today will give you 10 years. And every 10 years you get better insulation, more efficient motors and modern style rather than keeping your harvest gold. A quick google led me to a Reddit thread with energy star ratings suggesting a modern fridge uses about 400kw hours whereas a 1980 fridge used 1800 so at 10 cents a kWh that is $120 per year cheaper to operate. So essentially the power savings on a new fridge pay to replace the old fridge. At least with refrigerators limited life’s spans and lower costs saves money.

I have a 2006 Toyota with 400k on it. That’s about as new of vehicle as you are going to get with that kind of milage outside of cabs. Do you have evidence that the new models today won’t last as long? You don’t have to replace the 2k windshield with an intelligent one. You can go back to a dumb one and your car will function just like the older vehicles you are promoting. Also way back in 2006 the 20 years ago version of you was making the same arguments that cars got way to electronic and you’d never be able to run them that long. Cars are far more reliable now than ever. There are so few bad models out there. And up until the pandemic we’re getting cheaper relative to inflation.

Mobile phone screens are far stronger than they ever have been. Far better than first gen smart phones. There is no way you broke your phone on carpet in a case.

Clothing has never been cheaper. It doesn’t make sense to have a person resole a shoe when a machine does an entire new shoe for a lower cost. That high fashion charges high fashion prices is just not a concern.

You can complain about the nature of a disposable society being terrible for the environment and being terrible for the local economy but goods are far cheaper and far better leading to significantly lower lifecycle costs for people despite being more disposables

As you say do the math you will find Joe Consumer is getting a fantastic deal. I couldn’t disagree more with the entire content of your post.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

My phone cost less than $2000, I’ve had it for several years, and I drop it on average once a week and it’s never cracked.

I also don’t have one of those hideous old man otter box cases.

I essentially through mine down onto a tile floor tripping on stairs in the plus 15. It should have been destroyed. No case. Only damage is some chipping right at the edge of the bezel. The glass on new phones is amazing.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Yeah, yeah.

But can these new phones withstand a woman's wrath?

Because they have a special talent for damaging/destroying them that we could never muster on our worst day.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by curves2000

His quote was that his house is from 2017 and not that old yet he has issues occurring now that aren't expected. Given the age of the house, I am suspecting his hot water tank may be nearing EOL as would a lot of appliances.

This is a systemic corporate strategy that has been deployed across the board to continue to extract more and more dollars from consumers. This goes for virtually all businesses and industries. Things have gotten so bad that the EU recently passed laws stating that appliance manufactures were required to have parts available for 10 years post new model introduction. The old game of selling a 2000 Euro fridge and not having a part 4 years later proved old.

I am not some old guy who thinks of the good old days, I am in my 30's but I've seen what happens with things. As soon as you see how things have been engineered to actual break down on purpose, the sooner you realize how badly we are being taken advantage of.

An old is gold strategy for a lot of things really does apply from a cost perspective. Some things may be more energy efficient but cost significantly more from a repair and maintenance perspective. We are not that far removed from men doing a lot of repairs on their own cars in their garage to modern day mechanic shops (not dealers) not being able to afford some of the newer software systems cause of costs. Some of the diagnostic tools for new cars today will run a basic shop a couple hundred grand to keep up to date for a couple of years.

People will argue the above points constantly with me but corporate executives brag about it on earnings calls. They literally provide financial guidance & hard numbers to back up what they are doing. "New product introductions and innovation resulted in hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue increases and upgrade cycles. Changes in X product has resulted in an ARPU increase of X"

Okay. But without a 40 paragraph response, why are you talking about his water tank? He didn’t say it failed or was having problems.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Okay. But without a 40 paragraph response, why are you talking about his water tank? He didn’t say it failed or was having problems.

My logic is while your looking up furnace model and serial numbers, might as well do the hot water tank at the same time and see if it's registered. Considering a lot of hot water tanks have a warranty of approx 6 years and a lot of tanks seem to be having issues within 10, might as well check.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by GGG

I disagree it’s more expensive. Think about a fridge that is four times as expensive. It has to last 4 times as long not considering the time value of money. A fridge today will give you 10 years. And every 10 years you get better insulation, more efficient motors and modern style rather than keeping your harvest gold. A quick google led me to a Reddit thread with energy star ratings suggesting a modern fridge uses about 400kw hours whereas a 1980 fridge used 1800 so at 10 cents a kWh that is $120 per year cheaper to operate. So essentially the power savings on a new fridge pay to replace the old fridge. At least with refrigerators limited life’s spans and lower costs saves money.

I have a 2006 Toyota with 400k on it. That’s about as new of vehicle as you are going to get with that kind of milage outside of cabs. Do you have evidence that the new models today won’t last as long? You don’t have to replace the 2k windshield with an intelligent one. You can go back to a dumb one and your car will function just like the older vehicles you are promoting. Also way back in 2006 the 20 years ago version of you was making the same arguments that cars got way to electronic and you’d never be able to run them that long. Cars are far more reliable now than ever. There are so few bad models out there. And up until the pandemic we’re getting cheaper relative to inflation.

Mobile phone screens are far stronger than they ever have been. Far better than first gen smart phones. There is no way you broke your phone on carpet in a case.

Clothing has never been cheaper. It doesn’t make sense to have a person resole a shoe when a machine does an entire new shoe for a lower cost. That high fashion charges high fashion prices is just not a concern.

You can complain about the nature of a disposable society being terrible for the environment and being terrible for the local economy but goods are far cheaper and far better leading to significantly lower lifecycle costs for people despite being more disposables

As you say do the math you will find Joe Consumer is getting a fantastic deal. I couldn’t disagree more with the entire content of your post.

I can without a doubt confirm with you that a lot of things in life have significantly reduced in cost compared to many years ago, The cost of air travel is one that a lot of people just can't comprehend. Computers, laptops and other electronic devices. Lot's of things.

When it comes to appliances, my experience as a landlord with appliances is where I get my data from. On the properties where I have space and the ability to have older, more reliable and repairable appliances. I do! On some of my apartment units where smaller stove and fridge is required, I can't as it's hard to find. I am forced into the brand new, cheap, throw away Chinese crap. Magic Chef, Midea etc. They have doubled in price but are effectively 3-5 year fridges. If a minor issue occurs, I try and troubleshoot myself. There is no financial logic to try and call my repair guy cause 1-2 service calls to replace a part may cost $300-500 or even more. It's gotten to the point where it may make sense for me renovate the units for more space to get larger appliances where I can seek out older, refurbished models that last and are repairable.

When it comes to automobiles, it's not that new Honda's and Toyota's won't go to 500k. It's the operating cost associated with getting there is getting higher every year. Servicing cars these days is beyond absurd cost wise.

Your 2006 Toyota is probably a tank. The Honda's and Toyota's from years ago were made completely different. The Japanese part supplier industry was very different which set Japanese automakers apart quality wise. Japanese built cars were in a different quality category than North American built from the same manufacture too. It was very much small companies who produced specific parts. Like everything else these days it's big business and big suppliers have taken over. A lot of parts in modern day Honda's and Toyota's may as well be in entry level Ford's and Kia's.

I don't want to get too off topic but let's look at other "innovations" that really just drastically increase the ARPU for people. People can argue the merits of improvements but fail to realize that these things just actually cost them more. Apple AirPods style headphones, anything dealing with the Gillette Razor and Blade business model from P&G, planned obsolescence with virtually everything. Mattresses with all this foam that will wear out as opposed to metal springs etc.

It's tough to explain but I think people are convinced they are getting better deals in life then they think. Convinced that Rogers/Telus/Bell and Apple gave them some amazing new deal when their financials literally pointed to something else.

When I brought up Proctor and Gamble it's because it's a great illustration with how innovation within business works but consumers are convinced it's better overall for them. Tide laundry detergent is just powder or liquid, that's it. As a result of "innovation" on a simple product, I believe I had read a long time ago that P&G made an extra $15-20 billion in 10 years+. All those pods and fancy jazz pay more per user, per wash, every week for life.

This applies to Crest toothpaste with who knows how many options when the cheapest option does the best. Ads on social media/tv about running dishwashers even half empty since it's better for the environment (LOL) how many ten's of millions in extra Cascade detergent/rinse aid/dishwasher cleaner do they sell with a simple message that people believe?

People can spend their money however they wish but I am convinced that people need to be a lot more diligent with where some basic elements of their money go. Try and buy quality. Look at operating expenses, look at reparability, do homework on products, run some basic numbers. Despite being a landlord for my entire life with coin laundry, I have told friends and family to buy Speedqueen/Huebsch washers and dryers. They are reliable, designed for long term and overall cheaper long term since they are commercial grade. Nobody listens, even family who have them in their own commercial buildings, it's shocking to me. Just continue to buy Costco/Home Depot grade and have them break all the time.

[Fuzz]

I think if the motor went so soon in my furnace, I'd be investigating why. I'd suspect sloppy improper install over a bad part. The #### I've had to fix from "professionals" over the years that I paid them to do properly is the most frustrating. So I'd make sure the filter is appropriate and not stressing the motor, and make sure pressures are balanced properly. No point in a new motor if conditions still exist that caused the first failure. My HE furnace was installed in 2010, never had an issue despite some years of lax maintenance on my part.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Shazam

According to my furnace guy, for some furnaces the cost of replacing the motor is more than the cost of installing a new furnace.

This was basically my experience. I could have a repair done, or get a new furnace for more money, but not that much in the grand scheme of things, and have the warranty going forward. Honestly, this is one of the issues with trying to be environmental and reduce waste. Like I opted for the new furnace, and I know that’s hypocritical, but no wonder we have so much waste, when that’s the option.

[Fuzz]

It's almost like we need government control to prevent companies from doing this sort of thing, as unrestrained capitalism doesn't seem to be doing it. But I guess that would be red tape, and bad, according to most RW politicians.

[Weitz]

A new motor cost like $400 in my furnace. Are high efficient furnace motors that much?