Making the playoffs or keeping our top-10 first round pick 2025?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

We have good players, that is the whole point of this argument.

You used the best draft of all time like it comes around every other year.

We need ELITE players. Stars. You can go to free agency or the trade route to get good players.

Kyle Connor, also 17th overall
Kaprisov
Kucherov

all top 10 scorers right now

What is the "argument" anyway? Throw games lol

Dustin Wolf is elite, Where was he drafted? Was that also the best draft of all time? Vegas has elite players they didn't draft, be bold and smart.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Hey guys 20 years ago an elite Center went at 17th in the best draft in NHL history - so the Flames CAN totally get one there . (Even though we won’t even have a top 17 pick in all likelihood in this draft )

No one is saying it’s impossible - but it’s also just as likely another team drafts a falling elite Center mid / late first then the Flames

It isn’t like all the other teams don’t know how to draft and will let good players fall to us because they are incompetent

The 2007 Ducks also had the following players fall into their laps in a series of events that are extremely unlike to replicate themselves.

-Teemu Selanne
-Scott Niedermayer
-Chris Pronger.

Setting that aside, some of y’all need to dial back your expectations - cup or bust is fine if you’re the owner, or the coach, or the players, but all you’re doing is making yourself miserable as a fan if that’s your attitude.

A fun, likeable team that represents the city well and provides playoff hockey on a semi-regular basis. That’s all you can ask for.

Anything more and you’re just torturing yourself. You want to win a Stanley Cup, buy a team.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Kyle Connor, also 17th overall
Kaprisov
Kucherov

all top 10 scorers right now

What is the "argument" anyway? Throw games lol

Dustin Wolf is elite, Where was he drafted? Was that also the best draft of all time? Vegas has elite players they didn't draft, be bold and smart.

I think the point is that picks like Gaudreau and Wolf are not consistently reliable. If people thought these players would be as good as they are, they would have been drafted in the 1st round or even top 10.

If the goal is to draft Heiskanen, Oettinger, and Robertson every draft, well, yes, but that is not a replicable strategy.

Luck may be the biggest attributer to drafting success... and you have the best luck by picking higher (and more frequently).

[Jason14h]

Late rounds is basically random - so more ammo is better more so then “skilled drafting”

The issue is every team effectively has the same “odds” of finding that 1 in a hundred star in later rounds. Why do think the Flames will find more - and exponentially more - then the other franchises to use that as their building blocks

So if that is the strategy - it’s almost certainly not going to work

Can it ? I guess . Boston is probably the best example of a sustained team without a high pick being the driving force (Bergeron and Marchand and now Pasta being non high picks ,and Chara being the best FA signing ever)

But that’s one team in the last 25 years (and they did also get Seguin #2 but I wouldn’t classify him as a top 3 reason they have been good for so long)

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Late rounds is basically random - so more ammo is better more so then “skilled drafting”

The issue is every team effectively has the same “odds” of finding that 1 in a hundred star in later rounds. Why do think the Flames will find more - and exponentially more - then the other franchises to use that as their building blocks

So if that is the strategy - it’s almost certainly not going to work

Can it ? I guess . Boston is probably the best example of a sustained team without a high pick being the driving force (Bergeron and Marchand and now Pasta being non high picks ,and Chara being the best FA signing ever)

But that’s one team in the last 25 years (and they did also get Seguin #2 but I wouldn’t classify him as a top 3 reason they have been good for so long)

Besides pedantic exceptions, nobody really disagrees with you.

But what else do you want them to do, other than what they have been?

[Paulie Walnuts]

The Vegas argument needs to stop they are an expansion team not even 10 years in the league.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Besides pedantic exceptions, nobody really disagrees with you.

But what else do you want them to do, other than what they have been?

They should have dealt Coleman (I am assuming there was a market ) and Anderson in the offseason to start

I actually like most of what Conroy has done - but also bringing in 24-26 year old D who are more NHL ready in trades isn’t really helping the long term success of needing to be bad .

They 3/4 committed to sucking . They needed to 100% commit .

I am not sure they will have the honest evaluation of where the team is this offseason - that we basically wasted (another) potential rebuild year

In my opinion this season is showing exactly the risk of not fully tearing it down - or at least tearing down past “be ok” level

(Disclaimer - I thought they would be a lot worse record wise so maybe Conroy and ownership / management though this was enough to get into the bottom )

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

They should have dealt Coleman (I am assuming there was a market ) and Anderson in the offseason to start

I actually like most of what Conroy has done - but also bringing in 24-26 year old D who are more NHL ready in trades isn’t really helping the long term success of needing to be bad .

They 3/4 committed to sucking . They needed to 100% commit .

I am not sure they will have the honest evaluation of where the team is this offseason - that we basically wasted (another) potential rebuild year

In my opinion this season is showing exactly the risk of not fully tearing it down - or at least tearing down past “be ok” level

(Disclaimer - I thought they would be a lot worse record wise so maybe Conroy and ownership / management though this was enough to get into the bottom )

What sport have you ever played where the objective was to suck?

[Paulie Walnuts]

I mean the team is sucking overall, they are propped up by goaltending and playing a safe hard game.

We could have traded Coleman, but I don't think Wolf would allow any more goals without Coleman.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

What sport have you ever played where the objective was to suck?

The entire Oilers organization and philosophy is setup like the objective is to suck.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

The Vegas argument needs to stop they are an expansion team not even 10 years in the league.

Did they pick up their elite players via the expansion draft or the regular draft?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Did they pick up their elite players via the expansion draft or the regular draft?

They had the asset base to make those trades because of the expansion draft, and exist in a market desirable to free agents.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

They should have dealt Coleman (I am assuming there was a market ) and Anderson in the offseason to start

I actually like most of what Conroy has done - but also bringing in 24-26 year old D who are more NHL ready in trades isn’t really helping the long term success of needing to be bad .

They 3/4 committed to sucking . They needed to 100% commit .

I am not sure they will have the honest evaluation of where the team is this offseason - that we basically wasted (another) potential rebuild year

In my opinion this season is showing exactly the risk of not fully tearing it down - or at least tearing down past “be ok” level

(Disclaimer - I thought they would be a lot worse record wise so maybe Conroy and ownership / management though this was enough to get into the bottom )

There’s a salary floor, and they were already at it.

They couldn’t trade nearly $10M of Andersson and Coleman without taking back $10M in hockey players, and those players presumably want to earn another NHL contract.

Both are incredibly simple to move at any point, and it only gets easier as the cap goes up and more teams have more space.

Their record is what it is. They’d be comfortably in the playoffs if Kuzmenko wasn’t a complete void. They’re well coached, and the 23 year old goalie looks like a star, which is about all I was hoping to confirm this season. Oh, and Zary’s legit.

The year after Johnny and Monny made the second round, they had the highest pick in franchise history, and they’d draft top-10 one more time before they finally started to figure it out.

This group doesn’t have its Johnny yet. There is zero rush here.

Remember, it takes longer to do things quickly, it’s more expensive to do them cheaply, and it’s more democratic to do them in secret.

Maybe not that last one, but definitely the first two.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

They had the asset base to make those trades because of the expansion draft, and exist in a market desirable to free agents.

So not all home grown top 5 picks.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Goriders

So not all home grown top 5 picks.

Correct.

A once in the league's history expansion draft outcome giving them a bounty of assets beyond reason, a once in 20 years trade for a player with a broken neck.

Flames should 100% use that as their model for success.

The anti-bottoming crowd rarely seems to pitch a path to success, but rather just poo poo the idea of bottoming out.

So, if the idea of bottoming out is a no-go, then what is the actual plan? How do the Flames gather enough assets to build themselves into a contending team?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Correct.

A once in the league's history expansion draft outcome giving them a bounty of assets beyond reason, a once in 20 years trade for a player with a broken neck.

Flames should 100% use that as their model for success.

The anti-bottoming crowd rarely seems to pitch a path to success, but rather just poo poo the idea of bottoming out.

So, if the idea of bottoming out is a no-go, then what is the actual plan? How do the Flames gather enough assets to build themselves into a contending team?

Clearly fold the team and come back as an expansion team. Look at Vegas.

No mention of Seattle and how teams learned and didn't allow themselves to get swindled.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

That becomes less true with each passing season.

Weegar will be 6x$6.5M next year - if he were a UFA, he’d get more term and more dollars.

You couldn’t sign Kadri on July 1 for 4x$7M either.

Coleman’s UFA after next season.

Eight teams currently have $8M+ in cap space, and the cap is going to continue to rise now that it has 32 real NHL teams instead of 31 and a cap laundromat.

Huberdeau isn’t going anywhere, but everyone else can move without too much pain.

You are ignoring NTCs etc though. Coleman could be moved in his last year. Kadri will be hard unless he is open to waiving to multiple teams. I’d also keep Weegar if they move Andersson. Good to have one decent vet around. They also need cap to hit the floor so some vets will be on the team regardless. They aren’t sitting on 20 million of cap in an attempt to get into playoffs. I bet Conroy went into the season expecting a bottom ten to bottom five finish.

[CliffFletcher]

The Flames are handicapped in two of the three ways of improving a roster - trades and free agency. That puts even greater reliance on drafting.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Correct.

A once in the league's history expansion draft outcome giving them a bounty of assets beyond reason, a once in 20 years trade for a player with a broken neck.

Flames should 100% use that as their model for success.

The anti-bottoming crowd rarely seems to pitch a path to success, but rather just poo poo the idea of bottoming out.

So, if the idea of bottoming out is a no-go, then what is the actual plan? How do the Flames gather enough assets to build themselves into a contending team?

The Flames having multiple 1st round picks in 3 straight drafts is one way. They might not be picking crazy high but if they are picking multiple times in the top 32 that helps build a strong base. If they keep their cap sheet relatively clean and not waste money on free agents like Treliving loves to do they should have assets and space to acquire star players when they are asking out.

The bottom out crowd has no answer for how to avoid what Edmonton, Ottawa, Buffalo, Columbus and now Montreal have all had to deal with which was embracing losing today to win tomorrow. All these teams find out that there is no light switch to just start winning. If Edmonton ended up with Strome/Hanifin/Marner instead of McDavid I bet they are still in Sabres territory.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The Flames having multiple 1st round picks in 3 straight drafts is one way. They might not be picking crazy high but if they are picking multiple times in the top 32 that helps build a strong base. If they keep their cap sheet relatively clean and not waste money on free agents like Treliving loves to do they should have assets and space to acquire star players when they are asking out.

The bottom out crowd has no answer for how to avoid what Edmonton, Ottawa, Buffalo, Columbus and now Montreal have all had to deal with which was embracing losing today to win tomorrow. All these teams find out that there is no light switch to just start winning. If Edmonton ended up with Strome/Hanifin/Marner instead of McDavid I bet they are still in Sabres territory.

Edmonton, Buffalo, and Ottawa have also some of the worst management I regards to trades and roster decisions. Edmonton has managed itself out of winning a cup despite having McDavid.