Making the playoffs or keeping our top-10 first round pick 2025?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by blankall

That #1 overall was Stamkos. The Lightning still won with him spending most of the time on IR. Kucherov, who was drafted in the 2nd round, was clearly the won leading that team.

What about Hedman, didn't he have something to do with it?

[prizefighterinferno]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And even that isn't entirely true.

Bennett and Tkachuk spent 20 less minutes together than Tkachuk and Lindholm.

They tried it. It never worked.

Bennett was the fifth most frequent linemate for Tkachuk from 2017-2020 ... he was on average 55.6% xGF% with the top four but only 51.03% with Bennett.

They just didn't click.

Bennett wasn't playing in the middle as I recall. If they were together it was for stretches with Bennett on the right side of Tkachuk-Backlund. I imagine that had something to do with it, as did confidence, coaching, etc. which we've discussed ad naseum.

Calgary never did get acquire a decent play-driving top-six right winger that could play with those guys or anyone else either as those years were the tail-end of 3M and then James Neal (woof).

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And even that isn't entirely true.

Bennett and Tkachuk spent 20 less minutes together than Tkachuk and Lindholm.

They tried it. It never worked.

Bennett was the fifth most frequent linemate for Tkachuk from 2017-2020 ... he was on average 55.6% xGF% with the top four but only 51.03% with Bennett.

They just didn't click.

They weren't given substantial time in the top 6. When you say, Bennett was Tkachuk's 5th most frequent linemate, its because Tkachuk was getting lots of minutes, which involves being on the ice with bottom six guys. Tkachuk spent the vast majority of his time in Calgary on the 2nd line, typically with Backlund as his centre. When they wanted Tkachuk, who's talent was clearly growing beyond being a 2nd line winger to have more minutes, they gave him some time with the bottom six players, as they didn't want to disrupt the #1 line. Tkachuk didn't even get much time with Gaudreau until Sutter came in and then Bennett was moved out.

They needed to send out Tkachuk and Bennett as a frequent pairing with top line minutes, PP time, etc...

This obviously hindsight, but the Flames need a 1A/1B top 6 based around the pairing of Monahan/Gaudreau and Bennett/Tkachuk. Monahan's injury may have derailed that too though. That's not a drafting issue though.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

So why even try to make playoffs?

Because people who play sports want to win.

It's not like Conroy went and made a bunch of big signings to try and secure a playoff spot. Goaltending and heart has them where they are right now.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

Elite talent doesn't guarantee you a cup. But, you cannot win a cup without elite talent.

And the only player out of there I would consider elite at the time they played for the Flames was Tkachuk.

Look at our current roster, you aren't winning a cup with this group. So why even try to make playoffs?

Playing devils advocate again.

No matter what the Flames do I’m willing to bet they don’t win the Stanley Cup in my lifetime. Because of many of the items listed above which are in the Flames control (roster makeup, hiring of coaches and management, salary cap management). As well as all of the items not in their control in order to win a cup (draft lottery, injuries, referees, individual player performances ect).

My point is why would you subject your fanbase to having to watch a horrible product like the Sharks and Ducks from last season. I went to a Flames game in Anaheim. The place was half empty. The Ducks couldn’t even get across the red line for the majority of the game. Their fan base had given up.

So no matter what you do the chances are you are not winning the cup. So your paths are remain as competitive as you can while trying to improve your club via drafting/developing, trades, free agent signings. Or gut your team for a number of years chasing top draft picks only. Trading would probably not be an option anymore as you wouldn’t have anything to trade and free agents would not want to sign with you. So a multi year strategic sewering of your roster.

One path you probably maintain a fan and revenue base. The other more likely you don’t after a few seasons. With probably the same result in terms of number of cups.

Guessing this is why you’re not going to see a full gutting of the roster. If you are running the Flames as a business the loss of your fanbase is the fear.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Playing devils advocate again.
Guessing this is why you’re not going to see a full gutting of the roster. If you are running the Flames as a business the loss of your fanbase is the fear.

The roster was basically gutted. Andersson and Backlund are the only players left that are easy to move. Kadri/Coleman/Weegar are harder to trade and would have salary coming back.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Different approach - but without the missing elite talent I don’t see how we have a different result . And I don’t see a path to getting this elite talent , unless we believe UFAs are the path

We don’t have a lot of elite talent in the pipeline (could argue none ) and don’t look to be bottoming out (yet)

This is a 4-6 year journey, and we’re not even 18 months into it.

If they make the playoffs, enjoy it. It’s likely the last time playoff hockey will be played on Dome ice, and that’s worth more than the 16th overall pick, especially when we already have two others this year.

They’re probably not gonna keep Andersson, at least not at a number Andersson wants.

Huberdeau will be 32. Kadri will be 35. Backlund will be 36.

There are going to be a lot of poor finishes over the next half decade, and if this year isn’t one of them, it really doesn’t matter, since there’s nothing else they can do short of throwing games.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I don't know why you keep bringing up Anaheim or San Jose. San Jose just picked 1st overall and got themselves a franchise #1C. Rebuilds take time, you don't start winning the next season.

A lot of them usually end up firing the coach as well, and sometimes onto a 2nd manager.

Chicago won after they fired Savard. LA won after they fired Murray. St. Louis won after they fired whoever it was lol. Vegas fired the coach in the offseason.

People are letting a fluke season cloud their judgment. Dustin Wolf is not going to pull this team out of the toilet next season.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Bonded

The roster was basically gutted. Andersson and Backlund are the only players left that are easy to move. Kadri/Coleman/Weegar are harder to trade and would have salary coming back.

That becomes less true with each passing season.

Weegar will be 6x$6.5M next year - if he were a UFA, he’d get more term and more dollars.

You couldn’t sign Kadri on July 1 for 4x$7M either.

Coleman’s UFA after next season.

Eight teams currently have $8M+ in cap space, and the cap is going to continue to rise now that it has 32 real NHL teams instead of 31 and a cap laundromat.

Huberdeau isn’t going anywhere, but everyone else can move without too much pain.

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Because people who play sports want to win.

It's not like Conroy went and made a bunch of big signings to try and secure a playoff spot. Goaltending and heart has them where they are right now.

And loser points!

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Just to play devils advocate. Between 2018 and 2021 we had:

Lindholm #5
Monahan #6
Bennett #4
Hanifin #5
Tkachuk #6
Jagr #5 (2018 only)

Unless I missed it we didn’t win the cup.

I thought it was guaranteed.

Only 1 of those players is an elite talent

The issue is they needed an elite Center (and I would argue #1 D) to augment those players to be a true cup contender

You need A LOT of star players to win a cup , and a few elites thrown in

[Paulie Walnuts]

You don't need an elite goalie to win a cup either, but you do need that elite #1C. The only one I can think of that doesn't fit that mold is Andy McDonald on the Ducks.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't think anyone's arguing that.

But what's the solution?

Deal Wolf? Send him to the Wranglers (he's waiver safe)?

Trade for a dressing room wrecking narcissist to put an end to this hard working like each other garbage?

I think you have to roll with what you are. The Flames have added some young, secondary talent, and what looks like an elite goaltender. So some pieces are in place that are keeping things from sliding.

The biggest issue is there isn’t a “solution” per se - and that’s a really really bad spot to be in

People have shown it takes ~10 years even when drafting an elite player at 1 to win a cup . We haven’t even taken that step yet . So realistically even players 24+ will be old and/or not with this team when they actually compete for a cup

I think keeping Andersson , Coleman and even Weegar was a mistake . They should have torn this down even more , sucked up the pain for 3 years and started the upswing as we entered the new building .

Where do we go from here with a goalie who looks to be able to steal enough points from keeping us horrible , and vets playing hard ? I guess finish out of the playoffs the next 3 years in the middle , see the vets gets older and worse , and cross our fingers 3 of our 1st round drafted guys turn into stars / superstars

If not we will still be forced to eventually do a true tear down rebuild , and unfortunently it will be in 3-5 years and everyone will wish we had just done it sooner (no different then looking back wishing we rebuilt after the MT trade )

It is what it is - and what it is isn’t looking promising for the long term success of this franchise

[Saqe]

I don't know why people always bypass this point but it's not just about having elite talent. You can have all the talent in the world but you need a good head coach and good management too to win it all. An owner who can't keep his hands off hockey ops can sink the whole ship.

[Vinny01]

The Flames did the least of all the teams at the bottom in terms of trying to get better in the offseason and many would argue if anything they made themselves worse. They moved on from 4 of the 6 Dmen last year with Zadorov, Hanifin, Tanev all being traded and Kylington being allowed to walk. They replaced those guys with Mirimanov, Jake Bean, Kevin Bahl, and Tyson Barrie.

They traded Markstrom for futures and replaced him with a rookie

They traded Mangiapane for picks and let Grier walk and replaced them with Mantha and Lomberg.

The Flames are punching above their weight due to Wolf’s game translating well to the NHL and having Huberdeau somewhat bounce back or at least play his best hockey in Calgary. Kadri seems to be aging like Joe Pavelski and still producing at a good clip despite being in his mid 30’s. Zary and Coronato look like potential top 6 forwards and Weegar is still a stud on the back end.

This team can’t score, they suck on the PK and in the Faceoff dot. They work hard and typically do not get blown out and have won 18 of 38 games while getting 7 loser points and having a -12 goal differential. They are not a great team but they are playing hard and getting decent production from 3 of their top young players and their veteran 6.

[ComixZone]

Flames are 5 points out of a bottom-10 position currently.

Still feels like the outcome of this sits on Conroy's shoulders and what he does with Rasmus Andersson. If he trades Andersson, this is a bottom-10 team for sure in my eyes.

With Royle9's last update on central teams keeping an eye on Andersson, it's hard not to look at Colorado as a team that could make a serious pitch for him. Same can likely be said for Dallas and Winnipeg.

I hope Andersson gets dealt in-season. That'd be the biggest return Conroy has reeled in so far, and it'd go a long long way in building this team.

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

You don't need an elite goalie to win a cup either, but you do need that elite #1C. The only one I can think of that doesn't fit that mold is Andy McDonald on the Ducks.

That Ducks team was also loaded with stars/emerging stars.

They had McDonald putting up 78 points (I think you can look at St. Louis as also matching your non-elite #1 C), but they then had Selanne (94 points), and debatably the best 1-2 punch in NHL history in Pronger + Niedermayer, and 2nd year Getzlaf and Perry.

They also had JS Giguere, who absolutely was an elite goalie.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Only 1 of those players is an elite talent

The issue is they needed an elite Center (and I would argue #1 D) to augment those players to be a true cup contender

You need A LOT of star players to win a cup , and a few elites thrown in

That’s kind of my point. Six top 5s and only one is an elite player. So if we drafted them all six years of being a bottom feeder to get one elite talent.

The dome or new arena would have early 90s attendance by then.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

You don't need an elite goalie to win a cup either, but you do need that elite #1C. The only one I can think of that doesn't fit that mold is Andy McDonald on the Ducks.

That Ducks team had Getzlaf and the cusp of superstardom as well. I know O’Rielly had a con smythe run but was he ever considered elite? He has never had a point per game season in his career

[Paulie Walnuts]

Yeah, Andersson has to go, not a long-term piece on this team. His play is also getting worse.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Goriders

That’s kind of my point. Six top 5s and only one is an elite player. So if we drafted them all six years of being a bottom feeder to get one elite talent.

The dome or new arena would have early 90s attendance by then.

2 of those players went on to win cups from that list.