American Politics 4.0 - Orangeyou Glad He’s Back?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Are you actually this delusional? You're disagreeing with information and other opinions from reputable sources that are put in front of you? I'll repeat the quote from the article I posted:



Is your identity so tied to a Democratic president doing nothing wrong that you won't admit that there were places he failed? I agreed that Biden was a good President. I liked him and way prefer him over what we have now. But to refuse to admit that his border policies were a failure is not reconcilable - you lose any potential credibility you have when you bury your head in the sand like this.

Yes, we're looking at border apprehensions - I'm not sure how you think this data isn't representative. You claiming they just "caught more" is just not possible when you look at the trends, namely:

- The numbers spiked by a significant amount within a couple months of Biden's office after Biden almost immediately issued executive orders to open the borders up more. This isn't a function of just catching more people. It would take months and months to put in place the infrastructure and people needed to increase apprehensions to the level seen just 2-3 months after Biden took office
- You claim Trump had low numbers because of COVID, but if you look at the numbers pre-COVID, they were still much lower than anything Biden had in his first three years. (Chart shown in the article I linked)
- Biden's administration clearly admitted the issue during the election year and took steps to fix it via executive order earlier this year. Border apprehensions have fallen significantly since. But for some reason, apologists like you still feel the need to carry their water. Or was Biden's actions just to stop "catching" them???

Again - Biden put in place policies that removed border protections. Illegal border crossings spiked immediately. This is as clear of a cause-and-effect relationship as I've ever seen and you still have people claiming it's false. I'm not really sure what else to say, I'm dumbfounded that people will just refuse to acknowledge clear data presented to them.

You keep spouting the same thing without proof, and your quote from the article is an opinion.

Tell me again, how do they arrive at border crossing numbers? Then tell me how many crossers Trump didn't catch?

[GioforPM]

Trump claimed the number of illegal immigrants under Biden went to 21 million. That was an entirely made up number. The number caught was 8 million.

Plus Biden brought the numbers way down at the end. Despite Trump playing gamnes with border bills.

Finally, what exactly is the fundamental harm being caused that is such a national emergency? Just the presence of someone who is undocumented? I thought Americans were concerned about stuff that affected them? Undocumented immigrants commit less crime, receive less benefits and cause fewer problems than citizens. So Trump had to make up problems (including for legal immigrants - "they're eating the cats").

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Trump claimed the number of illegal immigrants under Biden went to 21 million. That was an entirely made up number. The number caught was 8 million.

Plus Biden brought the numbers way down at the end. Despite Trump playing gamnes with border bills.

Finally, what exactly is the fundamental harm being caused that is such a national emergency? Just the presence of someone who is undocumented? I thought Americans were concerned about stuff that affected them? Undocumented immigrants commit less crime, receive less benefits and cause fewer problems than citizens. So Trump had to make up problems (including for legal immigrants - "they're eating the cats").

Why have states and a border then?

Canada didn't even have undocumenteds, just too many legal temporary visas and that's already a big problem.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Why have states and a border then?

Canada didn't even have undocumenteds, just too many legal temporary visas and that's already a big problem.

Countries do have an interest in controlling their record of citizens. I'm just saying it's not the existential crisis made out by the right.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You keep spouting the same thing without proof, and your quote from the article is an opinion.

Tell me again, how do they arrive at border crossing numbers? Then tell me how many crossers Trump didn't catch?

You honestly can’t be serious. I’ve provided you with a cause (the specific Biden policies) and the effect (the numbers clearly showing an almost immediate increase because of the impact of the policies) and sources clearly stating that the cause and effect relationship exists, and you’re saying it’s all just opinion? Meanwhile you’ve shown literally zero information/data or even opinions that corroborate your stance.

I’ve shown you lots - why don’t you show any sources that show that there was no increase in illegal information under Biden? That’s your stance, you should have some data to back that up, right? Otherwise it would be one person showing cause-and-effect and another person showing pure conjecture.

You even literally admitted that Biden brought the numbers way down in the end, which I pointed out in my post. Again - why did the numbers get brought down if you claim that they were never really elevated in the first place and it was just apprehensions that increased?

Your point on “what’s the harm”? Seriously?? You don’t think there’s any potential downsides of millions of people illegally entering a country, most of whom have no means to support themselves? You don’t think that diverts funds from education and other social services in the cities with influxes of migrants to deal with the crisis? Hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions, have been spent on this.

https://denvergazette.com/news/immig...700f2.amp.html

You know that you can like Biden, hate Trump, and admit that Biden’s term had some failings right? Like those aren’t mutually exclusive ideas. Unless you just choose to ignore anything that doesn’t fit the narrative that fuels your identity.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Countries do have an interest in controlling their record of citizens. I'm just saying it's not the existential crisis made out by the right.

It is. Just based on numbers alone it's a crisis.

Economy, housing, resources etc... and most important, it's unfair.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Countries do have an interest in controlling their record of citizens. I'm just saying it's not the existential crisis made out by the right.

What an absurd take! Countries around the world all have strict border and immigration rules for control and for protection of their overall culture, norms, religious purposes, way of life and more. Without control you have flat out chaos as then everybody believes they have a right to live wherever they want and do whatever they want.

The reason why America has such a brutal record with mass illegal immigration is because it's part of their overall system in a lot of ways. They have lost control because of corporate and elite classes have pushed for this nonsense. This goes for Left and Right and for Democrats and Republicans while low and middle income American's have paid the price. I don't think for a second that Trump is going to actually deal with it but he will make a little noise. A lot of people will be deported but what needs to be done is a different story, the US needs to significantly reduce the demand and opportunity for cheap labour. We need top executives at American business to be arrested and charged. We need white guys in suits in jail for periods of time that will make corporate America scared ****less.

America wants the best, the brightest, the smartest and the hardest working people at the top and they also want the grunts, cheap labour, the hungry and the servants to the upper classes. It's what makes America.......America. Wealth like no other but poverty like no other.

Other countries with extremely high standards of living have an opposite take. Countries like Switzerland, Singapore, Norway, Luxemburg all want very low levels of immigration, population growth while maintaining living and economic standards that are the envy of the world. They don't want everybody coming over and taking a big slice of their own pie.

[Fuzz]

It's not jut corporate America, regular America has gotten used to cheap labour too. Things like landscaping, construction labourer, housekeepers etc..Many Americans are addicted to cheap labour so they can afford stuff they couldn't without it. I'm not sure they've moved on as far as they like to think from slavery, but it's pretty well accepted as normal down there.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by curves2000

What an absurd take! Countries around the world all have strict border and immigration rules for control and for protection of their overall culture, norms, religious purposes, way of life and more. Without control you have flat out chaos as then everybody believes they have a right to live wherever they want and do whatever they want.

The reason why America has such a brutal record with mass illegal immigration is because it's part of their overall system in a lot of ways. They have lost control because of corporate and elite classes have pushed for this nonsense. This goes for Left and Right and for Democrats and Republicans while low and middle income American's have paid the price. I don't think for a second that Trump is going to actually deal with it but he will make a little noise. A lot of people will be deported but what needs to be done is a different story, the US needs to significantly reduce the demand and opportunity for cheap labour. We need top executives at American business to be arrested and charged. We need white guys in suits in jail for periods of time that will make corporate America scared ****less.

America wants the best, the brightest, the smartest and the hardest working people at the top and they also want the grunts, cheap labour, the hungry and the servants to the upper classes. It's what makes America.......America. Wealth like no other but poverty like no other.

Other countries with extremely high standards of living have an opposite take. Countries like Switzerland, Singapore, Norway, Luxemburg all want very low levels of immigration, population growth while maintaining living and economic standards that are the envy of the world. They don't want everybody coming over and taking a big slice of their own pie.

America just makes more pie instead of fighting over who gets which slice.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by curves2000

What an absurd take! Countries around the world all have strict border and immigration rules for control and for protection of their overall culture, norms, religious purposes, way of life and more. Without control you have flat out chaos as then everybody believes they have a right to live wherever they want and do whatever they want.

Just say you just want the white folks and get done with it.

Me, I'm happy to get any number of immigrants in as long as they pass basic background necessities. Immigration has always meant better economic success. There's currently a housing crisis, but that's not on immigration IMO. It's on real estate strategies, NIMBYism and profiteering.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Trump claimed the number of illegal immigrants under Biden went to 21 million. That was an entirely made up number. The number caught was 8 million.

Plus Biden brought the numbers way down at the end. Despite Trump playing gamnes with border bills.

Finally, what exactly is the fundamental harm being caused that is such a national emergency? Just the presence of someone who is undocumented? I thought Americans were concerned about stuff that affected them? Undocumented immigrants commit less crime, receive less benefits and cause fewer problems than citizens. So Trump had to make up problems (including for legal immigrants - "they're eating the cats").

Adds to a serious housing crisis in many major cities, often leading to tent villages when there is no more affordable housing. Drives up the demand for cheap and affordable housing, making it more difficult for the working class.

Not to mention general issues with societal and cultural integration, but it's a smaller problem.

It's not a nothing issue to have zero control over the influx of immigrants. It was a major failing of the Biden administration, and that's coming from someone who really thought he had a good presidency (one that we won't see the benefits of for many years because the policies were all for long term planning, not a quick tax break to garner votes).

He did try near the end to implement a meaningful policy, but was blocked by the Republicans. It's not an unwarranted criticism to say he did a poor job of handling the issue for the first 3 years of his term.

To be clear, you can be pro-immigration and pro-border at the same time. These things aren't mutually exclusive. It just creates the rules and regulations for legal immigration instead of pure chaos.

[SutterBrother]

Current Maga vs Tech Bro H1B fight is fun.

MAGA: We hate elite college grads because they’re woke, or successful, or whatever.

MAGA: We deserve to get all the same stuff those elites have, even if we don’t go to college, or live in an urban area.

MAGA: What really gets us going are super-rich guys who hate elite college grads as much as we do. We get to live vicariously through them. Fantasizing about having power like they do makes us feel less impotent and aggrieved.

DOGE: The hippies I see on Twitter and who live near me in Palo Alto are super annoying. I hate them.

DOGE: Why do the worker bees at my company want to get paid so much? Don’t they realize how lucky they are to get to work for me? I’m inventing the future and they get to watch. Also, I find it annoying that these NPCs will leave my Super Awesome Company for some other gig just because it pays more. That’s disloyal to The Future.

DOGE: I would like to import engineers through H-1B because I can pay them less (which lets me put more resources into inventing The Future) and they can’t leave me for another job (thus wasting the time I have invested in them).

DOGE: Why no, I have never met a guy named Cletus from Alabama who has a high school education and a Confederate flag bumper sticker on his truck. I have no idea what such a person might be like.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/why-don...bros-just-hire

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Just say you just want the white folks and get done with it.

Me, I'm happy to get any number of immigrants in as long as they pass basic background necessities. Immigration has always meant better economic success. There's currently a housing crisis, but that's not on immigration IMO. It's on real estate strategies, NIMBYism and profiteering.

The race card nice.

You know who illegal immigration hinders? The lineup of legal immigrants trying to get in. It doesn't hinder any white people.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Just say you just want the white folks and get done with it.

Me, I'm happy to get any number of immigrants in as long as they pass basic background necessities. Immigration has always meant better economic success. There's currently a housing crisis, but that's not on immigration IMO. It's on real estate strategies, NIMBYism and profiteering.

Quite the opposite actually! I am the son of immigrants, virtually my entire social circle is immigrant and children of recent immigrant backgrounds.

When it comes to protecting Canadian cultures, values, history and more, sometimes it's the immigrants that understand things better. Renaming whatever building or bridge because of some poor history from 150 years ago? If the other civilizations did that nonsense there would be nothing left. There is no mass axing of history in huge swaths of the worlds population but here in Canada we gotta cancel everybody slowly.

Mass, unchecked immigration from Canadian's going to other countries in a hypothetical scenario? Good luck with that. You think they want their culture changed to become more like Canada? If anybody ever wants to see what a culture shock that would be, go check out the travel advisories for a whole host of different countries including established western nations on Canada's Foreign Affairs' website. The subtle wording about modest dress, zero tolerance on social disorder, drug use and to knock off the "I am gender X on my Passport" as those things don't apply to this country.

Logical, reasonable, controlled, modest immigration and making sure we bring in the highest quality people and integrate them exceedingly better than the useless way we do it now. Just ask organizations who deal with refugees and immigrants. The government just brings people in without much in the way of a plan and loads them onto organizations without proper funding or support. We have done such a piss poor job that the embassies and consulates of their home countries in Canada have become overwhelmed with requests for paperwork, documents, translation services and more

A lot of countries are not going to tolerate any of our perceived nonsense in their homeland and changing of culture, religion, stance on issues outside of western norm.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with high quality, modest immigration targets and a slow integration into Canadian society over an extended period. Utilizing programs for Temp Workers and a whole host of other salve like jobs in specific sectors for low wages and to lower wages for Canadians is also terrible.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by gioforpm

just say you just want the white folks and get done with it.

bingo

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Quite the opposite actually! I am the son of immigrants, virtually my entire social circle is immigrant and children of recent immigrant backgrounds.

When it comes to protecting Canadian cultures, values, history and more, sometimes it's the immigrants that understand things better. Renaming whatever building or bridge because of some poor history from 150 years ago? If the other civilizations did that nonsense there would be nothing left. There is no mass axing of history in huge swaths of the worlds population but here in Canada we gotta cancel everybody slowly.

Mass, unchecked immigration from Canadian's going to other countries in a hypothetical scenario? Good luck with that. You think they want their culture changed to become more like Canada? If anybody ever wants to see what a culture shock that would be, go check out the travel advisories for a whole host of different countries including established western nations on Canada's Foreign Affairs' website. The subtle wording about modest dress, zero tolerance on social disorder, drug use and to knock off the "I am gender X on my Passport" as those things don't apply to this country.

Logical, reasonable, controlled, modest immigration and making sure we bring in the highest quality people and integrate them exceedingly better than the useless way we do it now. Just ask organizations who deal with refugees and immigrants. The government just brings people in without much in the way of a plan and loads them onto organizations without proper funding or support. We have done such a piss poor job that the embassies and consulates of their home countries in Canada have become overwhelmed with requests for paperwork, documents, translation services and more

A lot of countries are not going to tolerate any of our perceived nonsense in their homeland and changing of culture, religion, stance on issues outside of western norm.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with high quality, modest immigration targets and a slow integration into Canadian society over an extended period. Utilizing programs for Temp Workers and a whole host of other salve like jobs in specific sectors for low wages and to lower wages for Canadians is also terrible.

If you’re actually an immigrant who believes these things, then why aren’t you adapting to Canada? You keep saying immigrants should adapt to the lifestyle here, but in the same breath you are constantly telling us that we should be more like other countries and change our culture, like not renaming landmarks or having “x” on their passports. There are other places, right? Why not move to the US? Has it crossed your mind that you’re acting in a completely hypocritical manner? You want our country to bend to your whims and believe systems, but keep saying everybody else that moves here should be the ones adapting.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Just say you just want the white folks and get done with it.

Me, I'm happy to get any number of immigrants in as long as they pass basic background necessities. Immigration has always meant better economic success. There's currently a housing crisis, but that's not on immigration IMO. It's on real estate strategies, NIMBYism and profiteering.

So if you have more people than your infrastructure can support you’re saying that has nothing to do with allowing too many people into the country?

It’s just math. Not some real estate conspiracy.

If you want to build the population via immigration. Build the infrastructure to support them. Then let them in. Not the opposite.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think you're right, gender is certainly a factor, but it is also that they represented the status quo. Americans don't want the status quo anymore, they want sweeping changes.

every 4 years lol

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Wormius

If you’re actually an immigrant who believes these things, then why aren’t you adapting to Canada? You keep saying immigrants should adapt to the lifestyle here, but in the same breath you are constantly telling us that we should be more like other countries and change our culture, like not renaming landmarks or having “x” on their passports. There are other places, right? Why not move to the US? Has it crossed your mind that you’re acting in a completely hypocritical manner? You want our country to bend to your whims and believe systems, but keep saying everybody else that moves here should be the ones adapting.

We are getting slightly off topic here in the American thread when this should be in the Canada Politics thread. That being said, when it comes to mass immigration to the tune of millions in a very short while (Canada) it changes things. For the better and for the worse. This isn't some Canada or American concern, it happens everywhere. Your starting to see huge pushback against mass over tourism cause it's pissing people off.

When people talk about immigration concerns and people fight back with the race card, they usually don't think of what the opposite thing would mean. What would other countries think of mass immigration? Us bringing Canadian values over to other countries and trying to change them?

Are some things I say hypocritical? 100% but so are a lot of people's when it comes to immigration. Just look at the federal government's changed response. As an immigration lawyer said on TV the other day, there are 2+ million people here on work visa's who are expecting residency here. They haven't been putting in the time in Canada just to get stiffed when it comes time to collect a PR card because the Liberals screwed this file up. The backlog is beyond a disaster.

I didn't just make up that bit about Gender X on a Passport. This is an official acknowledgement from the Government of Canada! Canada may issue them but when asked by other countries, there are only 2 choices and nothing more. When you actually see what the travel advisories are for a ton of other countries, you get a sense of how different our culture here and theirs is and why people sometimes butt heads with people over it.

To bring it back to what another poster said. You can be pro immigration and for strong borders. I advocate for high quality immigration, modest numbers, strong integration of Canadian culture and values while allowing and promoting of their own cultural identities.

What we have today is an abomination on this file and it's evident.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by curves2000

We are getting slightly off topic here in the American thread when this should be in the Canada Politics thread. That being said, when it comes to mass immigration to the tune of millions in a very short while (Canada) it changes things. For the better and for the worse. This isn't some Canada or American concern, it happens everywhere. Your starting to see huge pushback against mass over tourism cause it's pissing people off.

When people talk about immigration concerns and people fight back with the race card, they usually don't think of what the opposite thing would mean. What would other countries think of mass immigration? Us bringing Canadian values over to other countries and trying to change them?

Are some things I say hypocritical? 100% but so are a lot of people's when it comes to immigration. Just look at the federal government's changed response. As an immigration lawyer said on TV the other day, there are 2+ million people here on work visa's who are expecting residency here. They haven't been putting in the time in Canada just to get stiffed when it comes time to collect a PR card because the Liberals screwed this file up. The backlog is beyond a disaster.

I didn't just make up that bit about Gender X on a Passport. This is an official acknowledgement from the Government of Canada! Canada may issue them but when asked by other countries, there are only 2 choices and nothing more. When you actually see what the travel advisories are for a ton of other countries, you get a sense of how different our culture here and theirs is and why people sometimes butt heads with people over it.

To bring it back to what another poster said. You can be pro immigration and for strong borders. I advocate for high quality immigration, modest numbers, strong integration of Canadian culture and values while allowing and promoting of their own cultural identities.

What we have today is an abomination on this file and it's evident.

Do you not see it? In your previous post you talk down to Canadian values(respecting past wrongs, acknowledging hurt), but shouldn't you be adopting those values?