[PGT] Flames 2-1 over Isles in SO

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Robbob

The same thing happened in 2015 when we had Gaudreau come in and was in the Calder conversation as well. As much fun as it was beating the Canucks that year, they probably would have been better served getting a higher pick and for sure not trading a 1st for Hamonic shortly after.

Nothing wrong with winning playoff rounds.

Getting Hamonic was terrible.

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Right now, they’re 9th in Goals against and 24th in Goals For.

If they’re going to be a bottom-10 offensive team, they’d better be comfortably in the top-10 for goals against, probably top-5, if they’re gonna make the playoffs.

Yes, the PP and PK can’t get much worse.

But they can stay this bad. Unless Kuzmenko and Sharangovich figure something out in a hurry, the powerplay is going to remain lost, because there remains no true offensive catalyst on this team.

They’ll still need to play Vladar every 4th night to showcase him until the deadline. He’s probably not giving up one goal a night.

They will sell Kuzmenko + whoever else, and those spots will be filled with AHL callups who will probably score more but won’t be experienced enough defensively to overcome veteran teams who are gearing up for playoffs.

Wolf’s gonna win them games this year they shouldn’t. Tonight, for one.

But they give up the 7th most shots per game. I don’t see them improving much in this area because it’s so hard for them to carry the play. So few of the guys on this team are comfortable with the puck on their sticks for more than a second.

Backlund, Kadri, Zary… that’s basically it. I don’t understand why nobody knows how to protect the puck or box a defender out, or why they all stop skating as soon as the puck lands on their stick.

If they can hold it together, cool. I’m not rooting for them to fail, I just don’t think a roster that drafted 9th overall last year can run it all back + Dustin Wolf and achieve a vastly different result.

I’m there with you. So far they have exceeded my expectations. I think that the goaltending has been much better than expected. The defence is better than expected. The forwards are worse than I expected. I just don’t get how people can harp on coaching when two out of three positions are doing better than expected. This team shouldn’t be in a playoff spot in November, much less a division spot. Some part of that success is coaching.

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Robbob

The same thing happened in 2015 when we had Gaudreau come in and was in the Calder conversation as well. As much fun as it was beating the Canucks that year, they probably would have been better served getting a higher pick and for sure not trading a 1st for Hamonic shortly after.

The error was not doing well in 2015. The run and playoffs were not an error. The error was considering the rebuild done after that season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by NegativeSpace

The error was not doing well in 2015. The run and playoffs were not an error. The error was considering the rebuild done after that season.

Well they thought they'd drafted a 1C in Bennett (which he isn't even in Fla). So imagine Bennett scoring anywhere near a Draisaitl or even Reinhart.

So down the middle Bennett as an elite C, Monahan as a strong 2C and Backlund as a strong 3C looked pretty good. With Stajan as a darn good 4C.

They had a strong top 5 D - Gio/Brody/Hamilton/Wideman/Russell. A winger who looked elite in Gaudreau, plus Hudler, Frolik, Ferland and then they drafted Tkachuk, Dube and Fox.

Plus they were very hopeful that at least some of Mangiapane, Granlund, Kylington, Andersson, Wotherspoon, Poirier, Klimchuk, Jankowski, Shinkaruk, Kulak, Hathaway, would develop.

[SuperMatt18]

Making the playoffs this year is fine as long as they don't suddenly go "re-build over, time to start moving picks for assets"

And even after 14/15....the Hamilton trade is at least acceptable even if in the end Barzal and the two extra seconds would have been nice.

But it was more doubling down after the Hamilton trade with the Hamonic trade (1st and two seconds), blowing assets on mediocre goalies (Smith / Elliott), and the mistimed free agency signings since Treliving felt like he needed to spend to the cap every offseason (Brouwer, Neal).

Making the playoffs but keeping the long term "rebuild" strategy is a perfectly fine outcome this year.

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well they thought they'd drafted a 1C in Bennett (which he isn't even in Fla). So imagine Bennett scoring anywhere near a Draisaitl or even Reinhart.

So down the middle Bennett as an elite C, Monahan as a strong 2C and Backlund as a strong 3C looked pretty good. With Stajan as a darn good 4C.

They had a strong top 5 D - Gio/Brody/Hamilton/Wideman/Russell. A winger who looked elite in Gaudreau, plus Hudler, Frolik, Ferland and then they drafted Tkachuk, Dube and Fox.

Plus they were very hopeful that at least some of Mangiapane, Granlund, Kylington, Andersson, Wotherspoon, Poirier, Klimchuk, Jankowski, Shinkaruk, Kulak, Hathaway, would develop.

I agree with everything you wrote. I would simply add that projections for Bennett and the rest of the team need to bear fruit before you start to sell assets for short term fixes. At least in my opinion. It is probably some revisionist history on my part but I’m just hoping the Flames are not too quick to exit the rebuild this time.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Making the playoffs this year is fine as long as they don't suddenly go "re-build over, time to start moving picks for assets"

And even after 14/15....the Hamilton trade is at least acceptable even if in the end Barzal and the two extra seconds would have been nice.

But it was more doubling down after the Hamilton trade with the Hamonic trade (1st and two seconds), blowing assets on mediocre goalies (Smith / Elliott), and the mistimed free agency signings since Treliving felt like he needed to spend to the cap every offseason (Brouwer, Neal).

Making the playoffs but keeping the long term "rebuild" strategy is a perfectly fine outcome this year.

I'm not a big Barzal fan - his best year was his rookie year, which is a bit on an issue for me, and I'd say that Hamiton (becoming Lindholm and Hanifin) was a better outcome than Barzal.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well they thought they'd drafted a 1C in Bennett (which he isn't even in Fla). So imagine Bennett scoring anywhere near a Draisaitl or even Reinhart.

So down the middle Bennett as an elite C, Monahan as a strong 2C and Backlund as a strong 3C looked pretty good. With Stajan as a darn good 4C.

They had a strong top 5 D - Gio/Brody/Hamilton/Wideman/Russell. A winger who looked elite in Gaudreau, plus Hudler, Frolik, Ferland and then they drafted Tkachuk, Dube and Fox.

Plus they were very hopeful that at least some of Mangiapane, Granlund, Kylington, Andersson, Wotherspoon, Poirier, Klimchuk, Jankowski, Shinkaruk, Kulak, Hathaway, would develop.

To be fair, they weren't wrong at all in that hope:

Guys who developed better than expected: Andersson, Mangiapane.

Guys who developed as expected: Kulak, Hathaway.

Guys who developed into NHLers, but less than expected: Kylington, Jankowski.

That's 6 of the 11 guys you mentioned, which is pretty good for development out of any prospect pool, especially considering that not many of those guys were locks to become NHLers.

The team would also be vastly different if Fox had decided he wanted to play for the Flames instead of being the asshat that he is.

Even if Bennett develops into who he is now and stays with the team, it's still good.

If Kylington doesn't have his mental issues, maybe he's a much better player than he is now?

What happens if Dube isn't embroiled in scandal?

What happens if Monahan gets treatment for his injuries in a timely manner?

Just so many what ifs with that era, and clearly it was a team that could have been better if luck had been with them.

BUT...and this is a massive but...this still doesn't address the goaltending issues. All that talent and mediocre to terrible goalies behind them every step of the way. Treliving was a terrible evaluator of goaltending talent, and had no real plan to develop one of his own.

He's still kinda doing it in Toronto, relying on rebound performances or journeymen like Samsonov, Martin Jones, and now Stolarz to do the job. Mind you, Stolarz has been really good this year just like he was last year in Florida, so maybe he got lucky this time.

[the-rasta-masta]

Love watching this team this season. I said in the offseason that I couldn't see this team bottoming out. With that said I'm concerned with what we're going to do for centre depth moving forward. Backlund and Kadri are old and due for regression, and Kadri has a few years left on payroll, with no prospects really set to fill those spots. Flames might have two firsts this year but it's going to be hard to find impactful centre depth in the second half of the first round, we need our scouts to be on point. Last year provides some hope that our scouts and Conroy have a good eye for talent but even if Wolf proves elite and Parekh as well, we're going to need that elite first line talent at some point. I feel the mistake thats set to be made is not finding that centre through the draft and in two years time our only option is through free agency.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

What happens if Monahan gets treatment for his injuries in a timely manner?

This.

Part of me wonders why Monahan wasn't shut down sooner on a lot of his injuries.

And another part of me wonders "why didn't they just try to LTIR Monahan for the entire 22-23 season with the agreement that they'd re-sign him still instead of moving a 1st to get rid of him"

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by NegativeSpace

The error was not doing well in 2015. The run and playoffs were not an error. The error was considering the rebuild done after that season.

Not saying it was an error, just saying that in another universe the Flames probably would have been better served if they didn't. Especially considering the way they won their games.

Bennet not burning a year, would probably be able to get some time in the AHL rather than trying to develop beside Brouwer. Do they even bring Brouwer in. Do they still trade for Hamilton, or stay and end up drafting Barzal or Conner. Or do they lose a few more games and draft Ratanen (Colorado had 7 less points).

Of course the Hamonic fiasco.

I was only making the comparison that similar to 2015 with Gaudreau, the Flames are probably doing better than expected because we potentially have something in Wolf. Wolf winning a Calder is not a bad thing, it just probably means we have no shot at the players in the top 10.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

BUT...and this is a massive but...this still doesn't address the goaltending issues. All that talent and mediocre to terrible goalies behind them every step of the way. Treliving was a terrible evaluator of goaltending talent, and had no real plan to develop one of his own.

He's still kinda doing it in Toronto, relying on rebound performances or journeymen like Samsonov, Martin Jones, and now Stolarz to do the job. Mind you, Stolarz has been really good this year just like he was last year in Florida, so maybe he got lucky this time.

Their one opportunity to draft a good goalie under Treliving was 2014 when they took Macdonald ahead of Demko (though IIRC that Treliving may have actually sat the draft out because he'd just been hired away from AZ). I supposed they missed on Oettinger but he was picked 10 after Valimaki.
The biggest miss was Jankowski instead of Vasilevsky but that's not on Treliving of course.

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Not saying it was an error, just saying that in another universe the Flames probably would have been better served if they didn't. Especially considering the way they won their games.

Bennet not burning a year, would probably be able to get some time in the AHL rather than trying to develop beside Brouwer. Do they even bring Brouwer in. Do they still trade for Hamilton, or stay and end up drafting Barzal or Conner. Or do they lose a few more games and draft Ratanen (Colorado had 7 less points).

Of course the Hamonic fiasco.

I was only making the comparison that similar to 2015 with Gaudreau, the Flames are probably doing better than expected because we potentially have something in Wolf. Wolf winning a Calder is not a bad thing, it just probably means we have no shot at the players in the top 10.

I agree. There are a lot of what-ifs had they not been competitive that year. However, I take solace in the fact that Conroy was there for the whole roller coaster that we saw from the last rebuild from before 2015 to when Johnny and Matthew walked in free agency.

Gio is right that goaltending was the primary issue for so many years, until they got Markstrom. I would say coaching was another problem.

In some respects looking back, I just think that it was too early to pull them out of the rebuild with one year in the playoffs, one year out, one year in, etc. That's my view.

They couldn't find consistency because their players had to play out of their minds for them to be in the mix and they did not have enough of those players to do so each year on a consistent basis.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Robbob

The same thing happened in 2015 when we had Gaudreau come in and was in the Calder conversation as well. As much fun as it was beating the Canucks that year, they probably would have been better served getting a higher pick and for sure not trading a 1st for Hamonic shortly after.

There was nothing wrong with the 14-15 Flames making the playoffs - the fact that they made it, won a round and then drafted 4th, 12th (traded) and 6th the next three years tells you it did essentially nothing to harm their rebuild efforts.

It was the other mistakes you mentioned, as well as mistakes you didn’t, that compounded on each other to sewer this team.

Perhaps the biggest thing that screwed them was Markstrom/Talbot being the best goalies the team ever employed - they almost never had a Wolf-level goalie.

Now they have him right off the hop.

[jg13]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1859376252882178206

[Ped]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

To be fair, they weren't wrong at all in that hope:

Guys who developed better than expected: Andersson, Mangiapane.

Guys who developed as expected: Kulak, Hathaway.

Guys who developed into NHLers, but less than expected: Kylington, Jankowski.

Even Granlund played more than 300 games and hit double-digits in goals twice, and was not at all terrible for a mid-2nd.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by jg13

https://twitter.com/user/status/1859376252882178206

Hilarious.

[FlamesAddiction]

There was an Islander fan at the other end of the ice. It would have been hilarious if he skated 180' down the ice and stared him down. It would make it even more personal.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Playoff seasons are fine, just don't try to cut corners on the rebuild aspect of it and fall into the trap of thinking you're x trade target away (in order to justify paying hefty assets).

The talent in your system has to cook, which takes patience.

I think every Canadian team has taken turns making this mistake over the past ten years in some fashion and it's nipped them in the ###.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

This.

Part of me wonders why Monahan wasn't shut down sooner on a lot of his injuries.

And another part of me wonders "why didn't they just try to LTIR Monahan for the entire 22-23 season with the agreement that they'd re-sign him still instead of moving a 1st to get rid of him"

Because he was deemed healthy and wanted to play...cant just force someone on LTIR