Israel declares war on Hamas

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

Happily. They might deserve it, but they shouldn't necessarily get it. Because isn't that how we arrived at this very moment? Hamas militants (a bunch of lowlife racists and people that celebrate the mass murder of children) invaded Israel on Oct 7 and murdered a bunch of innocent Israelis (including children) and so Israel retaliated (gave them a good "slap").

So I guess using your own logic, you support Israeli's retaliation to the Oct 7 massacre? Interesting...

One of the more delusional posts I’ve seen here.

Absolutely disgusting to liken the murder of 40,000 people, displacement of millions, and undeniable humanitarian crisis, to “a good slap” in response to Oct 7th.

Do you read what you write before you post it? Imagine trying to trivialize something so serious and tragic in such words. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Fuzz]

I mean, he did put "slap" in quotation marks, knowing that word was doing A LOT of heavy lifting. It's easier to live with the consequences of what you support when you can downplay something as evil as the wilful murder of children with "slap".

[PepsiFree]

A lot of debate, but I see evaluating this event as pretty simple, but what I see is some people playing “gotchya” on inconsistent views.

If you are against things like targeting civilians and innocent people, disproportionate response, or things of that nature, you should be against the attacks against Israeli soccer fans in Amsterdam and be comfortably able to condemn it without playing games. And, you should be passionately against Israel’s war on Gaza and be able to comfortably able to condemn it all the same. If you find yourself defending/condemning one and not the other, which is probably true of several people who have turned this into a debate, then you should stop pretending you actually care about these things and start being honest to save everyone the trouble.

And, of course, the events in Amsterdam are turning out to be more complex than people want to acknowledge:

A week after Israeli soccer fans were attacked in the streets of Amsterdam, triggering damning accusations of a "Jew hunt" in a city with an ugly history of antisemitism, a clearer picture of what happened that night is slowly emerging.

It suggests a far more nuanced take on events than Dutch authorities had initially indicated.

The violence occurred before, during and after a match on Nov. 7 between Israeli team Maccabi Tel Aviv and the local Amsterdam Ajax club. More than 2,800 Israeli fans had travelled to the city for the game.

…

But a report released by the mayor's office earlier this week, compiled with significant input from police investigators, indicates it was Israeli fans who initiated the first attacks, which then spiralled.

The 10-page document addressed to council members says the first serious incident occurred around midnight on Wednesday, the night before the soccer match. It says 50 Maccabi fans pulled down a Palestinian flag from a building in the city's centre. Some of those fans moved on to Amsterdam's red-light district and attacked a taxi. Other taxis were vandalized by other Israeli fans nearby.

…


The report says after they left the stadium, some Maccabi supporters with sticks committed acts of vandalism in and around the city centre.

Other groups (the report does not say precisely who) then engaged in "violent hit and run actions" targeting Israelis, including using mopeds and motorcycles.

In response, police gathered Maccabi supporters together at several locations for their own protection, and buses were arranged to return them to their hotels.

…

It also notes that "distressing" incidents occur regularly in the city, affecting "not only Jews but also increasingly Muslims, Palestinians and other minority groups."

Jazie Veldhuyzen, an Amsterdam city councillor, said it's clear in hindsight that Dutch officials and politicians deliberately overreacted to the soccer violence because it was useful to their respective political agendas.

"Basically everything that happened this week, including the riots, has been used by right-wing politicians — even our prime minister — to point the finger at migrants and blame them," Veldhuyzen told CBC News in an interview.

…

Geert Wilders, the head of the far-right Party for Freedom, the largest party in the Dutch parliament, has been vocal about blaming the violence on ethnic Moroccans in the Netherlands, saying anyone found guilty should be deported.

…

"It wasn't the case that people were specifically looking for Jews," Veldhuyzen, the city councillor, said.

"People got attacked by Maccabi hooligans because they were mostly Arabs, and the counterattacks came as a result. But these [attacks] were directed at Maccabi fans specifically, and not at Jewish people from Amsterdam," he said.

Dutch Jewish groups, however, dispute that interpretation of the city's report.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/amster...ence-1.7383558

Seems like there was a pretty hard push for a particular narrative by far right and pro-Israeli lobbyist groups that may have duped a few people.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If you are against things like targeting civilians and innocent people, disproportionate response, or things of that nature, you should be against the attacks against Israeli soccer fans in Amsterdam and be comfortably able to condemn it without playing games. And, you should be passionately against Israel’s war on Gaza and be able to comfortably able to condemn it all the same. If you find yourself defending/condemning one and not the other, which is probably true of several people who have turned this into a debate, then you should stop pretending you actually care about these things and start being honest to save everyone the trouble.

My viewpoint is that I don't think the two events are comparable at all.

One is targetting innocent people. The other is targetting hooligans that are actively seeking confrontation. One group is blameless. The other is not.

[Fuzz]

Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, himself a settler, was confident enough to put a date on the aspiration during a Monday news conference in Jerusalem.

"The year 2025 will, with God's help, be the year of sovereignty in Judea and Samaria," he said, using the Jewish biblical name for the West Bank.

Smotrich added he intends to work with "the new administration of President Trump, and with the international community" toward that goal.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/settle...385172?cmp=rss


Way back when this started I was adamant that one of the goals here was for Israel to take more of the West Bank, and got a lot of push back form Israeli supporters saying this is about Gaza, not the WB, stop distracting with nonsense and all that. Well here we are. Fuzz was right again. It's becoming a pattern. Can we maybe stop supporting this now? Or y'all just OK with this?

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/settle...385172?cmp=rss


Way back when this started I was adamant that one of the goals here was for Israel to take more of the West Bank, and got a lot of push back form Israeli supporters saying this is about Gaza, not the WB, stop distracting with nonsense and all that. Well here we are. Fuzz was right again. It's becoming a pattern. Can we maybe stop supporting this now? Or y'all just OK with this?

How about it doesn't matter what we think, it's going to happen regardless. With Trump in power Isreal is gonna go for the hard press to eliminate palestine once and for all, and with full US backing it won't matter what the rest of the world says about it. At this point all you can hope for is that as many palestinians get out while they still can

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/settle...385172?cmp=rss


Way back when this started I was adamant that one of the goals here was for Israel to take more of the West Bank, and got a lot of push back form Israeli supporters saying this is about Gaza, not the WB, stop distracting with nonsense and all that. Well here we are. Fuzz was right again. It's becoming a pattern. Can we maybe stop supporting this now? Or y'all just OK with this?

That are two separate issues. When Trump was first in power he proposed a new map that involved annexing huge parts of the West Bank (30%):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trum...67%20territory.

The October 7 attacks and the resulting Israeli response are not the cause of this trump plan, which was announced in January of 2020.

[Fuzz]

There are no separate issues over there. Trump is going to let Bibi do whatever he wants, and give him the weapons to do it. Bibi wants to take every scrap of land he can get his hands on, and ideally not have a Palestinian left in the way. But if they are, no matter, they'll just take whatever they want anyway. Just as they have been doing for decades, which you'd acknowledge if you could look past your biases.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Racist chanting. "Kill all Arabs" Celebrating mass murder of children?
Beating taxi drivers. Destroying property.

And you want to just call it speech? Wow!

Originally Posted by CBC via PepsiFree

Some of those fans moved on to Amsterdam's red-light district and attacked a taxi. Other taxis were vandalized by other Israeli fans nearby.

Hang on. So all this time Bagor's been saying it was people being attacked, it was actually cars? The one example of violence against people actually wasn't?

Originally Posted by Bagor

My viewpoint is that I don't think the two events are comparable at all.

One is targetting innocent people. The other is targetting hooligans that are actively seeking confrontation. One group is blameless. The other is not.

I agree that Hamas are hooligans that are actively seeking confrontation, although it's a bit of an understatement. But I don't think the Maccabi fans were blameless.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SebC

Hang on. So all this time Bagor's been saying it was people being attacked, it was actually cars? The one example of violence against people actually wasn't?

You got reading issues?
Go back and read the whole quote you posted from. See if you can find the word *people"? See if the word "attacked" issues in the same sentence as it?

But anyways. You sound like one of those dum dum English soccer fans went see at virtually every major tournament being interviewed after getting a hiding from the locals after smashing up a bar claiming that they were being targeted.

But what's your point? Would it make it ok for you if they were just vandalizing property?

Originally Posted by SebC

I agree that Hamas are hooligans that are actively seeking confrontation, although it's a bit of an understatement. But I don't think the Maccabi fans were blameless.

Wow! I mention innocent people and you imply that they are Hamas? Are you Pointman in disguise?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You got reading issues?
Go back and read the whole quote you posted from. See if you can find the word *people"? See if the word "attacked" issues in the same sentence as it?

I don't see the word 'people', I see the word drivers. And not the word 'attacked', the word 'beating'. Are you really going to deny claiming that people were attacked when you said they were "beating taxi drivers" because you did not specifically use the words 'people' and 'attacked'?

Originally Posted by Bagor

But what's your point? Would it make it ok for you if they were just vandalizing property?

My point is that you misrepresented the nature of their misbehavior to justify the level of retribution. No attacks on people means that the response was not self-defense. The fan actions were still provocative, incendiary, inappropriate, and stupid.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Wow! I mention innocent people and you imply that they are Hamas? Are you Pointman in disguise?

I'm not saying Israel only targets Hamas. I'm pointing out, in a cheeky way, that you have things exactly reversed. Israel has legitimate targets (even if they also hit other targets). There is no legitimacy to beating people up for vandalism.

If you're concerned about your property (which is fair), get together where your property is and protect it. You don't need to go out looking for a fight (which is actually the worst thing to do if you have genuine concerns about the safety of your body).

You probably think I don't care about Palestinians. I think I care about them more than Hamas does. Because if I were the Palestinian government, I wouldn't use civilians as human shields, I wouldn't provoke the occupier, I wouldn't give a f*** about wiping Israel off the map or jihad. I would have worked on showing the world, and Israel and America in particular, that Palestine can be a peaceful, trustworthy entity. Made the occupation morally unsustainable, even to the occupiers. I would've taken one of the opportunities for statehood.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SebC

I don't see the word 'people', I see the word drivers. And not the word 'attacked',

Look harder

People got attacked by Maccabi hooligans because they were mostly Arabs, and the counterattacks came as a result

Originally Posted by SebC

My point is that you misrepresented the nature of their misbehavior to justify the level of retribution. No attacks on people means that the response was not self-defense. The fan actions were still provocative, incendiary, inappropriate, and stupid.

No. I did not.

It appears we have different lines. You appear to be ok with destruction of personal property and don't consider that something people have a right to defend themselves against. I don't know if that's because you're of the viewpoint that when English fans get their biannual beating after their usual thrashing property abroad it's undeserved and unprovoked?

Originally Posted by SebC

You probably think I don't care about Palestinians.

Yes. Yes I do. Your afterthought excusing the death of tens of thousands whilst making zero mention of the deliberate murders reinforces them.

Damn those Palestinians for making Israel kill them.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SebC

I Israel has legitimate targets (even if they also hit other targets). There is no legitimacy to beating people up for vandalism.

So you don't consider genocide excessive? But hooligans getting a bit of a slap for attacking people and property is? I

[CalgaryKid12]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

One of the more delusional posts I’ve seen here.

Absolutely disgusting to liken the murder of 40,000 people, displacement of millions, and undeniable humanitarian crisis, to “a good slap” in response to Oct 7th.

Do you read what you write before you post it? Imagine trying to trivialize something so serious and tragic in such words. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nope, not ashamed of myself, despite some random on a forum trying to tell me so.

The point I was making is that violence begets violence, and the continual escalation isn't helpful to anyone. But you read like half my post, without any of the context, and just screamed "outrage!" GJ dude.

But it's also good to know where you stand on the issue. If it's Jews/Israelis getting beat up (in Amsterdam) or massacred (Oct 7) it's fair game. Maybe you're the one who should be ashamed? Seems to align with Bagor's viewpoint too. Doesn't like violence, unless those pesky Jews are asking for it, then let em have it.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

Nope, not ashamed of myself, despite some random on a forum trying to tell me so.

The point I was making is that violence begets violence, and the continual escalation isn't helpful to anyone. But you read like half my post, without any of the context, and just screamed "outrage!" GJ dude.

But it's also good to know where you stand on the issue. If it's Jews/Israelis getting beat up (in Amsterdam) or massacred (Oct 7) it's fair game. Maybe you're the one who should be ashamed?

Can you quote where he said that please?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Look harder

You look harder. You're claiming Maccabi initiated attacks on people based on a contested interpretation by a left-wing, pro-Palestine, anti-capitalist councilor when the actual report doesn't say that. I could quote the most extreme anti-Arab positions and claim them as truth but I don't, because the extremes are the least credible sources.

So unless you provide better evidence, I will continue addressing this as a vigilante response to vandalism and not a case of self defense.

Originally Posted by Bagor

It appears we have different lines. You appear to be ok with destruction of personal property and don't consider that something people have a right to defend themselves against. I don't know if that's because you're of the viewpoint that when English fans get their biannual beating after their usual thrashing property abroad it's undeserved and unprovoked?

We sure do have different lines. Yes, if English fans are getting beaten for vandalism it's unacceptable (undeserved and unprovoked are your words, not mine). Even more unacceptable for random English fans who may not be vandals to be targeted. One basic tenet of self-defense doctrine is that it cannot be self-defense if the target is not an attacker.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Damn those Palestinians for making Israel kill them.

You say that facetiously, but what viable choice did Isreal have that would not have resulted in Palestinian civilian deaths, after Hamas invaded, murdered civilians, took hostages, then embedded itself in the civilian population?

Originally Posted by Bagor

So you don't consider genocide excessive?

Actually I do. My point is that Hamas was absolutely stupid and suicidal for giving a state it and its supporters consider genocidal casus belli. If Hamas isn't brain dead, then their actual objective cannot have been to alleviate Palestinian suffering when their actions invited it.

Originally Posted by Bagor

But hooligans getting a bit of a slap assaulted for attacking people and property is?

Yep.

Should Palestinians and supporters who chant "from the river to the sea", who celebrate Oct 7, who vandalize property be beaten? Please try to express a view that is consistent with your views on the Maccabi supporters and England fans.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by SebC

You say that as facetiously, but what viable choice did Isreal have that would not have resulted in Palestinian civilian deaths, after Hamas invaded, murdered civilians, took hostages, then embedded itself in the civilian population?

I don't think it is a legitimate argument to suggest that the only military intervention should be widespread bombing. In fact we have a very recent example in Iraq of how massive bombing campaigns do very little except further destabilization.

It is the most ecological and societally damaging method of warfare. The only benefit of such is to multinational construction companies that will come in to build Isreali condos once the ethnic cleansing is complete.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I don't think it is a legitimate argument to suggest that the only military intervention should be widespread bombing. In fact we have a very recent example in Iraq of how massive bombing campaigns do very little except further destabilization.

It is the most ecological and societally damaging method of warfare. The only benefit of such is to multinational construction companies that will come in to build Isreali condos once the ethnic cleansing is complete.

I agree! But I don't think I ever suggested that. What I did say is that the Israeli response is "a massive overreaction". Israel could've taken a much more measured approach. But the civilian death toll of the response was never going to be zero.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by SebC

I agree! But I don't think I ever suggested that. What I did say is that the Israeli response is "a massive overreaction". Israel could've taken a much more measured approach. But the civilian death toll of the response was never going to be zero.

It was never going to be zero. You're correct and most people would agree that was never an option after oct 7th. The primary criticism isn't that Isreal should do nothing, it is that Isreal appears to be actively trying to destroy all aspects of Palestinian life, all the way down to geographical landmarks. If this continues another year, what evidence that Palestine existed at all will remain?

And we are clutching pearls about soccer hooligans getting into fights?!

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SebC

So unless you provide better evidence, I will continue addressing this as a vigilante response to vandalism and not a case of self defense.

LOL! That's it. First you're scrambling to deny there is any mention of "attacks" on "people" then when it is pointed out to you your response is I don't believe him!

Originally Posted by SebC

You say that as facetiously, but what viable choice did Isreal have that would not have resulted in Palestinian civilian deaths, after Hamas invaded, murdered civilians, took hostages, then embedded itself in the civilian population?

Is that a serious question? Are you implying that Israel had no choice but to commit Genocide?

No choice but to snipe at young children? (waits for rebuttal saying multiple health care workers can't be trusted).
No choice but to hover over children lying on the ground hand shoot them?
No choice but to starve them?
No choice but to completely destroy their health care facilities, their places of worship, universities, etc....
No choice but to bomb so caller safe areas?
No choice but to mass murder tens of thousands of civilians?

Took you a while but you finally crawled out of your hole.

Originally Posted by SebC

Actually I do. My point is that Hamas was absolutely stupid and suicidal for giving a state it and its supporters consider genocidal casus belli. If Hamas isn't brain dead, then their actual objective cannot have been to alleviate Palestinian suffering when their actions invited it.

You're trying to justify it. Shift the blame completely onto one side.
No one is arguing against the stupidity and evilness of Hamas.
But what a lot of people are arguing is that despite the evilness and brutality of that day that does not justify genocide.