American Politics 4.0 - Orangeyou Glad He’s Back?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Will the illegal immigrants still be able to pick the food in the United States or will that be jobs for Americans now? Can it look like the Grapes of Wrath because while I only read half the book it sure seemed like a fun family trip to California!

Also the United States imports a lot of food, not a scholarly source but I don't see why you think that the United States doesn't import food and why a tariff wouldn't impact the prices.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-produc...-food-imports/

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/...ts-by-country/

Well if you think Trump will depart 25 million illegals in 4 years, you might have a point.

If he puts a tariff on food than the price will go up FOR That item, not neccesaroly across the board.

This isn't neccesarily direct at you Mustard. But do some of you guys think there is a button he can push called Tariff and BOOM everything coming into the country has a Tariff?

If he put a tariff on EVERYTHING, yes THAT IS bad , but he's not going to do that, there are still SANE people in goverment.

So like a lot of aruments here is that everything has a tariff and all 25 million illegals will be deported. This just ain't gonna happen. the negative effect of those policies will be minuimal to most people

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Your current argument appears to be that there is a limit to how much profit a company will want to make. While that is plausible, I think you’ll need a little more than just a trickle down based theory before you can start making claims that lower food prices will be a guaranteed outcome.

Its not neccesarily a limit but in econmics there is the concepts of
Optimal Profit Point
Optimal pricing.

There comes a point where you can price yourself out of having an effective long term business, which is what most shareholders care about.

Food prices are naturally coming down thanks to inflation coming down. Energy prices would also bring down prices of ALOT of things.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Well if you think Trump will depart 25 million illegals in 4 years, you might have a point.

If he puts a tariff on food than the price will go up.

This isn't neccesarily direct at you Mustard. But do some of you guys think there is a button he can push called Tariff and BOOM everything coming into the country has a Tariff?

If he put a tariff on EVERYTHING, yes THAT IS bad , but he's not going to do that, there are still SANE people in goverment.

So like a lot of aruments here is that everything has a tariff and all 25 million illegals will be deported. This just ain't gonna happen. the negative effect of those policies will be minuimal to most people

What I love most about Trump supporters is that they ignore what he says and pretend he'll do what they think is reasonable, despite his words. And BTW, who are these "sane" people that will be around to moderate his insanity?

As a candidate, Trump pledged to slap 60% tariffs on all goods coming in from China and 10% tariffs on goods imported from all other countries.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/08/polit...egy/index.html

[Locke]

I would pay real money to see Trump show up to his inauguration dressed as the Hamburglar.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What I love most about Trump supporters is that they ignore what he says and pretend he'll do what they think is reasonable, despite his words. And BTW, who are these "sane" people that will be around to moderate his insanity?




https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/08/polit...egy/index.html

It is kinda crazy and it applies to most polticians but Trump happens to be much more of an exaggerator than most. But the left takes him literally and his supporters don't pay attention to what he says. And this is a product of people getting their information from cable news. (THEY ALL SUCK)

But the truth lies somewhere in between. All someone has to tell him is that he is ripping off Bernie Sanders economic plan from 2016 lol

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Its not neccesarily a limit but in econmics there is the concepts of
Optimal Profit Point
Optimal pricing.

There comes a point where you can price yourself out of having an effective long term business, which is what most shareholders care about.

In this case they’ve already established their optimal pricing. If people are already willing to pay that price there’s absolutely no incentive for retailers to lower the price just because their costs have come down.

Food prices are naturally coming down thanks to inflation coming down. Energy prices would also bring down prices of ALOT of things.

That’s not how inflation works.

Prices aren’t falling, they’re just going up at a much lower rate.

If you want to keep making that argument that’s fine, but you need to back it up with some actual examples of food prices being lower than they were before.

Otherwise you’re just doing the same thing that you’re criticizing others for doing.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

It is kinda crazy and it applies to most polticians but Trump happens to be much more of an exaggerator than most. But the left takes him literally and his supporters don't pay attention to what he says. And this is a product of people getting their information from cable news. (THEY ALL SUCK)

But the truth lies somewhere in between. All someone has to tell him is that he is ripping off Bernie Sanders economic plan from 2016 lol

It's more likely that he just isn't very good at achieving his goals. He had 4 years to get Mexico to pay for a wall. Is that cheque still in the mail? Perhaps by "exaggerator" you mean liar. Which makes me question the intelligence of people who vote for a failure and a liar. Why would you want to be governed by a loser?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Tariffs the latest boogie man... If you buy your stuff second hand ect, which "i would imagine most of those fumbling peasants who voted for Trump do"... no effect there either.

Wrong. More expensive new goods leads to less new goods purchased leads to less supply of second hand goods leads to more expensive second hand goods. That's without getting into substitution effects (which also make second hand goods more expensive in an environment with more expensive new goods).

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's more likely that he just isn't very good at achieving his goals. He had 4 years to get Mexico to pay for a wall. Is that cheque still in the mail? Perhaps by "exaggerator" you mean liar. Which makes me question the intelligence of people who vote for a failure and a liar. Why would you want to be governed by a loser?

I agree with all of that. He won't do ####.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by BigThief

You know what young people love, traditional late night network talk shows. They can't get enough. Everyone at school each morning is talking about the latest Kimmel monologue.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

In this case they’ve already established their optimal pricing. If people are already willing to pay that price there’s absolutely no incentive for retailers to lower the price just because their costs have come down.



That’s not how inflation works.

Prices aren’t falling, they’re just going up at a much lower rate.

If you want to keep making that argument that’s fine, but you need to back it up with some actual examples of food prices being lower than they were before.

Otherwise you’re just doing the same thing that you’re criticizing others for doing.

We are both right though. Yes prices are going up at a much slower rate than before for sure over the long term, thats monetary inflation working and that's been happening for decades. but they fluctuate in the short term.

Having said all that, there ain't anything Trump is going to do about prices, unless his policies lower energy costs.

My original point is that the whole Tariff boogie man thing is over blown and hard to quantify.

I mean if you voted Liberal in Canada.. you shouldn't care because there is nothing worse for prices across the board than a carbon tax.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by SebC

Wrong. More expensive new goods leads to less new goods purchased leads to less supply of second hand goods leads to more expensive second hand goods. That's without getting into substitution effects (which also make second hand goods more expensive in an environment with more expensive new goods).

true. then people buy less but what your saying will happen over a long period of time

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Except domestic apples won't be cheaper either, becuase they are going to have to pay "real Americans" more money to pick them, take them to market, and work in stores to sell them.

What's crazy is that in turn, "real Americans" will have a higher wage to buy real American made apples.

Crazy.

But I'm sure Reagan and trickle down economics will somehow be an issue.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

https://twitter.com/user/status/1855616267777888487

This guy gets it. The democrats failed not because its messaging was poor or because some voters are racist or misogynist or because Kamala was a historically unpopular politician. All of those things are true to some extent, but none of those problems were insurmountable.

The democrat party failed because it doesn't offer real solutions to the genuine problems faced by large coalitions of disenfranchised citizens. Instead, the democrats do what's best for the elite that fund them. And then the democrat machinery gaslights and talks downs to those citizens calling them racist, deplorables, uneducated, stupid, homophobic, white trash, rightwing extremists, religious cultists, etc.

And the democrats do that because their party is beholden to the elites who profit off the global order that has devastated larges swaths of the country's identity, dignity and economic well-being. So the democrats are happy to attack republicans for their proposed solutions to these very real problems, but can't offer any solutions of their own.

Its not just Trump. Republicans won up and down the ticket for good reason.

The Democrats spent all their time on getting the women vote and abortion. They act as if women vote intersectionally in a vacuum, as if families don't exist. Most women who are married and have kids, vote according to their family situation. If their husband is strugging, they vote to help him. If their son is struggling, they vote to help him. Yes, fathers vote to protect their daughters but the Democrats forget that mothers also vote to protect their sons.

Same with Latinos. If you listened to the Democrats, you'd think all Latino were illegal.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Tariffs the latest boogie man...

When it comes to inflation and higher prices, the concern is food and energy costs, which the US is self sufficient in for the most part. So tarrifs will have little effect. Bring down energy costs and you bring down the cost of food and other things.

If you buy your stuff second hand ect, which "i would imagine most of those fumbling peasants who voted for Trump do"... no effect there either.

So i am not sure that Tariffs have the effect those who are gas lighting about it think it does.

And i am no fan of tarrifs for the most part.

This is stupidity on a new level. Well done Mel.

Tariffs ARE a mechanism that causes inflation, as they are costs passed along to the consumer through price increases. Anything that is imported from China is going to get slapped with a tariff, meaning everything at Walmart and Target, where most Americans shop, is going to be more expensive.

Ah, but don't worry. You'll be able to buy things second-hand and not feel the effects of inflation! Again, another MelBridgeman bobble of brilliance that shows he has no grip on the topic of economics.

Also, energy and food are the primary drivers of inflation! Well, with the anti-immigration policy and the hopes of deporting 20 million undocumented people, that is also going to cause inflation. If you don't have that source of cheap labor, what impact does that have on prices and the availability of food?

https://www.americanimmigrationcounc...ss-deportation

For the TLDR set, like Mel, here's a quicker read.

https://grist.org/food-and-agricultu...-labor-supply/

The downstream affects of such policy are also going to greatly detrimental to social security and medicare. The loss of this revenue stream of people who can't access such programs is going to be huge to the large number of Americans who do use them.

https://www.marketplace.org/2019/01/...nd-receive-no/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9647478/

It's almost like MelBridgeman is talking out his ass?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

What's crazy is that in turn, "real Americans" will have a higher wage to buy real American made apples.

Crazy.

But I'm sure Reagan and trickle down economics will somehow be an issue.

So you are accepting the price of these goods will rise?

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So you are accepting the price of these goods will rise?

With wages? Sure.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

With wages? Sure.

OK, so the tariffs will increase the cost of most things, but that will be offset by increased wages for fruit pickers? What about people who don't pick fruit?

[Fuzz]

The non-partisan Peterson Institute for International Economics has estimated Trump’s new proposed tariffs would lower the incomes of Americans, with the impact ranging from around 4% for the poorest fifth to around 2% for the wealthiest fifth.
A typical household in the middle of the US income distribution, the think tank estimates, would lose around $1,700 each year.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20myx1erl6o


Good read in the expected results of the tariffs, and how they didn't have the benefits Trump expected last time.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

OK, so the tariffs will increase the cost of most things, but that will be offset by increased wages for fruit pickers? What about people who don't pick fruit?

I dint say there would be increased wages for fruit pickers. Exclusively or otherwise.