Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Firebot]

Is this the point where we question scientists and researchers? Seems like QAnon alt right nonsense to me!

The research has to be theoretical...because the dairy cartel doesn't tell us the numbers discarded.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ont...y-milk-dumping

https://canadiangrocer.com/canada-ca...umping-problem

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/dai...d-19-1.5528331

Discarding milk to control pricing has been talked about very often over the years as we know it's a common practice.

[Azure]

I'm sure everyone agrees that a ton of milk gets dumped all the time. The question is whether or not it is actually as much as the article alluded too.

Which if you think about it, does it really matter? I mean there is still a #### ton getting dumped, it really makes no sense when you consider what it takes to actually produce milk, and dairy is kinda expensive? So maybe just maybe there are some common sense solutions to prevent so much dumping? You know like lowering prices of near expired milk to move it faster like GGG said? Or dairy products in general?

Kinda strange that a price control that screws over consumers is sometimes met with consumers saying 'but yeah we love it that way.'

Go talk to your local milk producer. You might learn something about how ridiculous the industry operates.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm sure everyone agrees that a ton of milk gets dumped all the time. The question is whether or not it is actually as much as the article alluded too.

Which if you think about it, does it really matter? I mean there is still a #### ton getting dumped, it really makes no sense when you consider what it takes to actually produce milk, and dairy is kinda expensive? So maybe just maybe there are some common sense solutions to prevent so much dumping? You know like lowering prices of near expired milk to move it faster like GGG said? Or dairy products in general?

Kinda strange that a price control that screws over consumers is sometimes met with consumers saying 'but yeah we love it that way.'

Go talk to your local milk producer. You might learn something about how ridiculous the industry operates.

Or find an export market for the excess if our product is really as good as the dairy lobby claims.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

People really like to rag on supply management because they have been lead to believe that getting rid of it is going to magically lower the prices they pay at the till. Yet their arguments for why they believe that are generally theoretical things like supply and demand, which are only about as universally proven as trickle down economics.

Does nobody here actually understand microeconomics? Just because people don't understand something, doesn't mean it's a "fairy tale".

When it comes to supply and demand, there's elastic demand and inelastic demand. Milk is inelastic demand, which (put simply) means that people who drink milk are going to drink milk regardless of the price (within reason), so iggy_oi is correct that the farmers dumping milk shouldn't have much of an effect on prices, but it's not because supply and demand is a fairy tale of evil capitalism.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Does nobody here actually understand microeconomics? Just because people don't understand something, doesn't mean it's a "fairy tale".

When it comes to supply and demand, there's elastic demand and inelastic demand. Milk is inelastic demand, which (put simply) means that people who drink milk are going to drink milk regardless of the price (within reason), so iggy_oi is correct that the farmers dumping milk shouldn't have much of an effect on prices, but it's not because supply and demand is a fairy tale of evil capitalism.

While demand is inelastic supply depreciates quickly. This mean if there is surplus in the market it will be sold at a discount.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by curves2000

People who really defend our level of supply management in Canada just don't appreciate really good food and like the pain of being royally screwed in the a**. There is no justification for it to the degree we have in Canada. Our dairy products are garbage, our prices are high, our quality is low and the level of import duties and limitations on the real good stuff is sky high. Nobody really wins except the people at the top.

The bastardization of things like Greek yogurt in it's current Canadian form, people who think Kraft parmesan is cheese when in reality it's sawdust. Canadian's who don't understand or appreciate how tasty rooster can be, why? Cause in Canada we cull male chickens effectively right away for the trash after we select them as male as they offer nothing other than meat to the dairy/egg industry.

When you make billions in profits feeding Canadian's the garbage and limiting their options for the real beautiful things in life, then your going to protect it. I get there is a business case and a political case for some protection but come on. Life is too short for this BS when it comes to the good things.

Enjoy real good quality eggs that don't need to be refrigerated and come talk to me about supply management. People claiming they "love Greek salads" who have never really had authentic Greek feta cheese. People paying $20 for nachos which are fried chips with 3 oz's of a processed product called cheese. The fact that Canada does not recognize European Protected Designation of Origin for it's products shows how little regard for Canadian's food choices our people in power allow. Brutal

Are you against egg washing?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Does nobody here actually understand microeconomics? Just because people don't understand something, doesn't mean it's a "fairy tale".

When it comes to supply and demand, there's elastic demand and inelastic demand. Milk is inelastic demand, which (put simply) means that people who drink milk are going to drink milk regardless of the price (within reason), so iggy_oi is correct that the farmers dumping milk shouldn't have much of an effect on prices, but it's not because supply and demand is a fairy tale of evil capitalism.

Milk demand has dropped about 15% over the last ten years though. Partly due to inflation and partly due to increases in substitutes such as all the new nut "milks."

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Milk demand has dropped about 15% over the last ten years though. Partly due to inflation and partly due to increases in substitutes such as all the new nut "milks."

Per capita milk demand has decreased or total milk demand has decreased? Because it doesn't seem the latter is true.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=3210011301

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Per capita milk demand has decreased or total milk demand has decreased? Because it doesn't seem the latter is true.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=3210011301

Milk available per capita is down about 25% over the last ten years (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...rDisplay=false) and consumption per capita is down about 15% (https://www.statista.com/statistics/...20since%202015.)

This is dated but you can read some of the commentary from the government about why demand is decreasing:
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/.../14786-eng.htm

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Is this the point where we question scientists and researchers? Seems like QAnon alt right nonsense to me!

The research has to be theoretical...because the dairy cartel doesn't tell us the numbers discarded.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ont...y-milk-dumping

https://canadiangrocer.com/canada-ca...umping-problem

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/dai...d-19-1.5528331

Discarding milk to control pricing has been talked about very often over the years as we know it's a common practice.

Well which is it? Farms dumping milk in 2020 was headline news, but at the same time they are routinely dumping almost 10% of their production?

Anyway, the idea that no one publishes disposal numbers is obviously incorrect, as the the Dairy Farmers of Ontario published their disposal volumes in their annual reports, and pre-pandemic it averaged about 1-1.5% of production. That's about 80-85% lower than the study's estimate. And most milk isn't dumped completely; the cream is removed for other uses and just the skim milk is disposed.

Also, I just realized that one of the study authors is the so-called "Food Professor" Sylvain Charelebois. That makes me even more skeptical, as that guy basically functions as a mouthpiece for grocery monopolies.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Does nobody here actually understand microeconomics? Just because people don't understand something, doesn't mean it's a "fairy tale".

When it comes to supply and demand, there's elastic demand and inelastic demand. Milk is inelastic demand, which (put simply) means that people who drink milk are going to drink milk regardless of the price (within reason), so iggy_oi is correct that the farmers dumping milk shouldn't have much of an effect on prices, but it's not because supply and demand is a fairy tale of evil capitalism.

Your words, not mine.

The point I was making is that it’s a fairy tale to assume that supply and demand isn’t impacted by other factors, such as greed. But if you wanna go over the top and try to put words in my mouth fill your boots.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Milk available per capita is down about 25% over the last ten years (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...rDisplay=false) and consumption per capita is down about 15% (https://www.statista.com/statistics/...20since%202015.)

This is dated but you can read some of the commentary from the government about why demand is decreasing:
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/.../14786-eng.htm

Let’s be clear, demand per capita is decreasing, not demand. Those are two different things. Total demand has increased per the link I posted. Supply and demand curves are based on total supply and demand, they aren’t based on per capita metrics.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Let’s be clear, demand per capita is decreasing, not demand. Those are two different things. Total demand has increased per the link I posted. Supply and demand curves are based on total supply and demand, they aren’t based on per capita metrics.

Demand per capita is down more than the rate of population growth. That can only happen when overall demand drops.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Demand per capita is down more than the rate of population growth. That can only happen when overall demand drops.

…and if you’d bothered to open my link, you’d realize that you’re looking at numbers of milk consumption in terms of milk, the beverage. And milk gets used for a whole lot more than that.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

…and if you’d bothered to open my link, you’d realize that you’re looking at numbers of milk consumption in terms of milk, the beverage. And milk gets used for a whole lot more than that.

Yeah, no #### I'm talking about milk, the beverage, because I'm going off the comment you made about milk demand and people who drink milk will drink milk.

[PepsiFree]

This whole conversation is moo because milk drinkers are psychotic anyway.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This whole conversation is moo because milk drinkers are psychotic anyway.

[calgarygeologist]

Since we are on the topic of dairy and New Zealand was previously brought up

The Government has this morning notified the Government of Canada that it will be triggering mandatory negotiations with Canada, forcing it to the table in a bid to resolve a dairy scrap that has dragged on for years.

The dispute involves Canada not meeting its requirements to New Zealand to open its market to our exports under the terms set by the CPTPP trade agreement. A panel of arbitrators ruled in favour of New Zealand last year, saying Canada’s blocking of dairy access meant it fell short of its CPTPP obligations.

It will be the first time any CPTPP country has used this type of negotiation to resolve a dispute. The dispute was initiated by the last Government, with bipartisan support.

Trade Minister Todd McClay said Canada has failed to comply with that ruling, forcing New Zealand to escalate to this next step. Negotiations must start within 15 days and should they fail, New Zealand could begin to apply tariffs to Canadian goods entering the country.

“There are a range of things we can consider. The best way forward is for Canada to either pay compensation to our exporters for their loss or to make changes that bring them within the rules, but we reserve the right to take action on behalf of our exporters,” McClay said.

McClay told the Herald New Zealand estimated it had lost “a couple of hundred million dollars worth of exports” over several years.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politi...PPELQJVEKVHPM/

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by chemgear

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Well which is it? Farms dumping milk in 2020 was headline news, but at the same time they are routinely dumping almost 10% of their production?

Anyway, the idea that no one publishes disposal numbers is obviously incorrect, as the the Dairy Farmers of Ontario published their disposal volumes in their annual reports, and pre-pandemic it averaged about 1-1.5% of production. That's about 80-85% lower than the study's estimate. And most milk isn't dumped completely; the cream is removed for other uses and just the skim milk is disposed.

Also, I just realized that one of the study authors is the so-called "Food Professor" Sylvain Charelebois. That makes me even more skeptical, as that guy basically functions as a mouthpiece for grocery monopolies.

So you won't trust this guy, but you'll trust the Dairy Farmers of Ontario to actually be accurate in reporting how much they dump, even though we all know that they would have literally no reason to lie about that. Literally not a SINGLE reason.