MF YYC Politics - there, I mega did it

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Man, I didn't know the city had already purchased light rail vehicles that were compatible with the initial underground alignment, but the new alignment rendered these vehicles unusable under the UCP's revised plans. This is just one of the dumb things this provinicial government is doing to waste taxpayer money on the project.

You cannot run a world class city when the provinicial government is continually pulling the rug out from under you.

This is the big deal now from the construction industry for ANY large proposed project. The industry will not be able to trust the provincial government, and therefore, pricing is going to be higher.

Just atrocious decision making.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by accord1999

It should just be the Green Line from 4 Street SE to the Deep SE, with a non-tunnel DT option. It could be the absolute barebone Gray proposal which builds very little new track and ends right at the edge; to an elevated alignment that follows the same tunnel path to Eau Claire.

There IS NO at grade option for downtown, without removing 4th, 5th, 6th, or 9th as an automobile road.

Elevated is possible, but with the +15 network, that has to be TWO levels above ground, and that a BAD idea for many reasons. The city studied this thoroughly. There is NO other option than tunneling.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by accord1999

It should just be the Green Line from 4 Street SE to the Deep SE, with a non-tunnel DT option. It could be the absolute barebone Gray proposal which builds very little new track and ends right at the edge; to an elevated alignment that follows the same tunnel path to Eau Claire.

I think ultimately if you look at the goal of the entire project, north to south, and assume one day this is something we want and will have, then it doesn't make sense to do the easy stuff first if it isn't going to result in savings elsewhere in the system. This partial plan would make sense to the North, where it would be useful and generate revenue to support it. But to the south? All it does is provide low ridership numbers as evidence it is a boondoggle and will prevent any further expansion. Get the DT done in the best way possible with the most foresight, and worry about the rest later.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Yes, and that plan also cuts out stations in Ogden and Shepard, take ridership from 55,000 to 32,000 daily, and cost $6.3 Billion, which Dreeshen gave the a-ok for.

Now, they want it down to Seton (UCP stronghold) and are going through a reimagining process and is getting new consulting services for a realignment. What am I missing here?

After a second look, Alberta is no longer giving the a-ok for the July Stage 1.

The tunnel from Eau Claire to 4 Street SE plus the underground station at 7th Av SW and the station box at Centre Street takes up the bulk of the Stage 1 funding, if you switch to a cheaper alignment (even elevated will be significantly cheaper) then that frees more money to go SE.

The SE has seats currently for the UCP, but the Green Line's priority has always been the SE since it was picked over the North Central in 2017 so there are no differences in the two plans regarding that. Even more so that the expensive Bow River crossing was cut out of Stage 1 in July.

[btimbit]

https://x.com/CBCScott/status/1836092447656452208

Scott Dippel
@CBCScott
City administration is recommending the Green Line board oversee the winding down of the LRT project and that the work be done by the end of this year. Lawsuits are expected against the City says CFO Carla Male.

It really can't be understated just how much of a boondoggle the province is causing here

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

How do you think the province is going to accomplish that? The same province that cancelled the Deerfoot P3 project because the estimates were too high, brought it back under multiple contracts, and are now paying more for less improvements?

By going over the tracks and terminating on the east side of City Hall.

Which fails to get riders to the true core of DT. So they'll try to hop on WB trains at City Hall Station...except those trains probably won't dump enough riders to make enough room.

But to the Province this also creates a link to their 'Grand Central Station' just north of the new arena

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Man, I didn't know the city had already purchased light rail vehicles that were compatible with the initial underground alignment, but the new alignment rendered these vehicles unusable under the UCP's revised plans.

Those vehicles will be snapped up by another LRT project elsewhere in the world. But this is still a travesty.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by btimbit

https://x.com/CBCScott/status/1836092447656452208



It really can't be understated just how much of a boondoggle the province is causing here

Legal folks, would residents of the green Eau Claire townhomes have a case to sue the city and province over being expropriated?

[Muta]

Above-grade and at-grade rail infrastructure, through downtown, is a catastrophically bad idea. Spend the money, do it properly for once - put the Green Line underground.

UCP should remove themselves from the business of urban planning, that's not their expertise.

[PepsiFree]

What’s the running total in billions of UCP-caused taxpayer dollar waste?

- pipeline
- green line
- turkish tylenol

Any other big ticket items ranging from tens of millions to billions in waste? Is this what having “the adults in charge” looks like?

[btimbit]

"Durr I voted for lower taxes" - Braindead UCP supporters

Yeah, except that never happened either. Surely even people that voted for this mess are mad by now, right?

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

There IS NO at grade option for downtown, without removing 4th, 5th, 6th, or 9th as an automobile road.

The initial recommended option in 2016 for the belt line was 12th Avenue surface. Its score was slightly lower but a lot cheaper. But public engagement at that time caused it switch to the tunnel, and a lot of concern already about costs.





https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...tion-1.3540932



https://lrtonthegreen.ca/wp-content/...ion-Part-2.pdf

Elevated is possible, but with the +15 network, that has to be TWO levels above ground, and that a BAD idea for many reasons. The city studied this thoroughly. There is NO other option than tunneling.

The study for the northern portion (from Eau Claire to 10th Ave S) showed that it could work. The tunnel was better, but also far more expensive, scoring 1/5 for capital costs, operational costs, land impact and construct-ability.


https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....ocumentId=8291



The issue with these old studies is how they weighed cost, the scoring was out of 135 points and costs only counted for about 20 points. When the full tunnel (4 km from 20th Av N to 4 St SE) was around $2B, the cost benefit made it worth it. But the tunnel is much more expensive now (and already cut by 1.7 km) so those studies' conclusions aren't as relevant anymore.

[FlameOn]

UCP caused wind down of the Green Line is expected to cost the city over $850M excluding all the contractor lawsuits.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...cost-1.7325028

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What’s the running total in billions of UCP-caused taxpayer dollar waste?

- pipeline
- green line
- turkish tylenol

Any other big ticket items ranging from tens of millions to billions in waste? Is this what having “the adults in charge” looks like?

I'm not sure we know the full cost of the Dynalife fiasco, but that is up there for sure.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

There IS NO at grade option for downtown, without removing 4th, 5th, 6th, or 9th as an automobile road.

Elevated is possible, but with the +15 network, that has to be TWO levels above ground, and that a BAD idea for many reasons. The city studied this thoroughly. There is NO other option than tunneling.

Those roads don’t have 100% green time right now…

The actual problems are the heavy rail and 7th ave. So you are guaranteed to be grade separated at those car sewers you list.

IMO staying at grade over the Macleod Trails actually wouldn’t be that bad since all roads involved are 1-ways. Use the 1st St Sw underpass and cut/cover to 4th Ave. Terminate there for now and Worry about connecting the lines later (or just don’t connect them). Boom, I just made the tunnel 600 meters and shallow.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm not sure we know the full cost of the Dynalife fiasco, but that is up there for sure.

Over $95M last I checked.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...her%20%2465.5M.

$75M for Turkish Tylenol
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...clogged-tubes/

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I think ultimately if you look at the goal of the entire project, north to south, and assume one day this is something we want and will have, then it doesn't make sense to do the easy stuff first if it isn't going to result in savings elsewhere in the system.

For that I think the City should have done a PR reset for the project, come clean to the public about the new project costs, explicitly declare future stages so that the North feel a part of it and have some confidence that it'll come someday, and instill discipline on each stage so that it doesn't eat all of the future funding. It's hard to take City assurances these days when the future transit funding that was supposed to extend the line north, gets redirected to going SE without any council or public consultation.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1818467128166826184

And also work with Alberta and Canada to have a credible funding schedule for a $13, $14 billion project so that extensions can be built with minimal delay.

This partial plan would make sense to the North, where it would be useful and generate revenue to support it. But to the south? All it does is provide low ridership numbers as evidence it is a boondoggle and will prevent any further expansion. Get the DT done in the best way possible with the most foresight, and worry about the rest later.

Unfortunately the Green Line decisions and spending since 2017 has made it only possible to build in the SE. Beddington/64th Av to Highfield even with at-grade/elevated compromises should still be a useful line (and replace lots of buses) but there's no work done in the north to get it ready, so it'll be easier just to build further to the SE. I wasn't expecting any work in the north until the Green Line reached Seton even before the July changes.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

UCP caused wind down of the Green Line is expected to cost the city over $850M excluding all the contractor lawsuits.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...cost-1.7325028

Ya, that's some of it.

Hardcastle said it's unclear how much the entire process, including moving to and from the private system, cost taxpayers. She said Albertans deserve a breakdown of those numbers.

"What was the cost to transition it to Dynalife in the first place? And what resources did we spend making these deals happen?"

Lets not forget the UCP blew up the NDP plan that had a site under construction at the time, that would have avoided all of this. That should also be included in the costs, along with the immeasurable costs of future expenses due to that boneheaded decision, and all the lost time to the system and patients throughout the fiasco. I'm willing to accept a round number in the $10 trillion range.

I'm sure the delays to the south Edmonton hospital are also one we can add tot he tally sheet. I can see why they did it though, with a shrinking population and no real practical need.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by accord1999

The initial recommended option in 2016 for the belt line was 12th Avenue surface. Its score was slightly lower but a lot cheaper. But public engagement at that time caused it switch to the tunnel, and a lot of concern already about costs.





https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...tion-1.3540932



https://lrtonthegreen.ca/wp-content/...ion-Part-2.pdf




The study for the northern portion (from Eau Claire to 10th Ave S) showed that it could work. The tunnel was better, but also far more expensive, scoring 1/5 for capital costs, operational costs, land impact and construct-ability.


https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....ocumentId=8291



The issue with these old studies is how they weighed cost, the scoring was out of 135 points and costs only counted for about 20 points. When the full tunnel (4 km from 20th Av N to 4 St SE) was around $2B, the cost benefit made it worth it. But the tunnel is much more expensive now (and already cut by 1.7 km) so those studies' conclusions aren't as relevant anymore.

The question still remains - what is the best solution for long term needs? Long term, the option they were going with was needed.

Sure some surface system on 12th before it goes underground to get under CPKC could work. It would save some money, with some downsides. (level crossing on McLeod, reduced traffic capacity on main roads in the beltline). The city studied all of these options, and made the best decision.

However, the UCP never had any intention of going ahead with this project in any form.

[Torture]

And also work with Alberta and Canada to have a credible funding schedule for a $13, $14 billion project so that extensions can be built with minimal delay.

That sounds like a great plan on a hockey forum but given what we have just seen and how the Province 'works with' the City on this....uhh...good luck with that...?