MF YYC Politics - there, I mega did it

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Torture

Disagree with the plan all you want but you have to be able to at least agree that the way the Province handled this is an absolute disaster.

But not as badly as the City and Green Line team. The problems were starting to be known as early as February 2017:


https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ties-for-years


And from then onwards, costs continued to be always under-estimated.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by accord1999

As this post points out, the letter only says the funding is there if it meets Alberta requirements, not that it was already approved:


https://skyrisecities.com/forum/thre...8#post-2139321


And this also ignores that Canada wanted an updated business plan to look at too.


https://cdn.skyrisecities.com/forum/...pm-png.596782/

Again, you can disagree with the plan for the Green Line, but the province has been essentially saying 'yep, we're not completely thrilled about it but as long as you do A, B, and C (which the city did) you have our go ahead ' and now they're yanking the rug out from under the City.

In that same thread you reference it has this excerpt from the province..

The Province confirms the following:
1. The Grant funding will not be reduced or pro-rated, as long as the scope for Phase 1 of the Green Line:
• Connects to the existing Red and Blue Lines in downtown Calgary, and
• Integrates into the Provincial Master Plan and specifically the planned “Grand Central Station”, next to the Arena and Entertainment District.

How the #### is the City supposed to know that the Province is going to yank the funding when they've been saying 'yes as long as you meet our conditions' (which they did) the whole time?
I get you have problems with the Green Line as it was designed that go back before this, but that's completely separate from the manner in which the province has dealt in bad faith and torpedoed this whole thing.

[Fuzz]

they can bank on it

Really does open the province up to taking the financial hit here. And they should. They can add it as a line item on property tax bills all across the province, so voters know exactly who is taking money from their pockets with brain-dead decision making. It can go just below the KXL pipeline payments.

[Ozy_Flame]

Man, I didn't know the city had already purchased light rail vehicles that were compatible with the initial underground alignment, but the new alignment rendered these vehicles unusable under the UCP's revised plans. This is just one of the dumb things this provinicial government is doing to waste taxpayer money on the project.

You cannot run a world class city when the provinicial government is continually pulling the rug out from under you.

[The Fisher Account]

It just so exhausting that the provincial government purposely sabotages it's largest city out of spite.

Like seriously, what kind of joke timeline are we all living in?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

It just so exhausting that the provincial government purposely sabotages it's largest city out of spite.

Taking away a much needed hospital from Edmonton (and focus intead on rural healthcare expansions and muse about a new Red Deer hospital), and taking away a train line for Calgarians across the entire city to almost exclusively serve Calgary riding strongholds.

These, among other braindead decisions they make that have impacted the two biggest cities during their tenure.

This government punishes people who don't support them rather than lift them up.

I know YYC Council isn't loved here, but the Province is completely turning their back on them. I suspect in no small part it's because they want to blame Nenshi for failures in Calgary and use that as crudely-made political weapons to turn Calgary support against him due to inflated municipal challenges. And as for Edmonton, they are just ruthlessly forking them up the ass.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

and taking away a train line for Calgarians across the entire city to almost exclusively serve Calgary riding strongholds.

It wasn't a train for the entire city, it was the equivalent of two generations of transit funding for this area:





And both plans are going to the Deep SE, the only difference is the Alberta plan wants to spend no more than existing funding, the Green Line plan needs another $2B.

[Fuzz]

Except there is no Alberta plan yet. Just a want. Which is where this all started decades ago.

[Locke]

This is clearly because the Province wanted to put the train underground but Gondek wanted the roofs of the trains to have solar panels so the whole project fell apart.

[Ozy_Flame]

Yes, and that plan also cuts out stations in Ogden and Shepard, take ridership from 55,000 to 32,000 daily, and cost $6.3 Billion, which Dreeshen gave the a-ok for.

Now, they want it down to Seton (UCP stronghold) and are going through a reimagining process and is getting new consulting services for a realignment. What am I missing here?

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Except there is no Alberta plan yet. Just a want. Which is where this all started decades ago.

I'm sure they have concepts of a plan.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

I'm sure they have concepts of a plan.

Dont you start that nonsense here!!!

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is the type of project that really needs a deep dive into what happened. The way it has been canceled has been clearly political but at the time the value for the product we were getting had become questionable.

If we had a reasonable provincial representatives here there is a project that could be built that would accomplish most of the goals.

We know exactly what happened. The UCP never dealt with the city in good faith. EVER.

They never had intentions of letting the city build this project.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Torture

2.1B for nothing. #### you Devin ####ing Dreeshan.

Better than 6 billion for a train that really doesn't accomplish anything? It's possible that the city is operating on the sunk cost fallacy.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by accord1999

the only difference is the Alberta plan wants to spend no more than existing funding, the Green Line plan needs another $2B.

How do you think the province is going to accomplish that? The same province that cancelled the Deerfoot P3 project because the estimates were too high, brought it back under multiple contracts, and are now paying more for less improvements?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by accord1999

It wasn't a train for the entire city, it was the equivalent of two generations of transit funding for this area:





And both plans are going to the Deep SE, the only difference is the Alberta plan wants to spend no more than existing funding, the Green Line plan needs another $2B.

And the "alberta plan" (which we don't even know about yet), doesn't go downtown, so has ZERO plan of even trying to make a working system.

The WHOLE point was to build a ROW downtown, because we need one to add any new line. This one that we wanted to build, provided one that could be used for lines running in at least 2 directions - if not more in the future)..

The UCP is responsible for the delays that caused contract to have to wait until after inflation, and then the province refused to adjust for inflation, which is why the line got cut shorter right at the end.

Its a $2B political stunt by the UCP. I strongly suspect that the city will be suing the UCP and/or the province for that money. Probably should add Smith, Dreeshan, and Kenney personally.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Better than 6 billion for a train that really doesn't accomplish anything? It's possible that the city is operating on the sunk cost fallacy.

This is the false narrative the UCP is presenting. It would provide the most expensive and challenging part of the project, so expansions could be added later, taking advantage of federal funding in the future as it becomes available. If we don't do this right, we may as well give up. And I'm not saying the city plan was the only right one, I didn't like a lot of it. But at this point they are just adding costs for no good reason with every delay.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Better than 6 billion for a train that really doesn't accomplish anything? It's possible that the city is operating on the sunk cost fallacy.

Why do people keep saying this?

WE NEED A new Right-of-Way downtown to make any new line work. This was getting that done. We have no functional new line with out one. This was providing the only one that's really possible to build at all, and works with what the city wants to do in the long term.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Except there is no Alberta plan yet. Just a want. Which is where this all started decades ago.

It should just be the Green Line from 4 Street SE to the Deep SE, with a non-tunnel DT option. It could be the absolute barebone Gray proposal which builds very little new track and ends right at the edge; to an elevated alignment that follows the same tunnel path to Eau Claire.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

I'm sure they have concepts of a plan.

A plan to have a concept of a plan.

Conceptually.