Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Those damned Liberals.. just sitting there doing nothing about the issues with the TFW program. Oh wait.....

This post and attempted defense is quite ironic considering the Liberal stance in 2013-2014 (and where the program currently sits today).

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/cont...642e4eb7c.html

https://liberal.ca/liberals-propose-...orker-program/

https://liberal.ca/conservatives-mis...orker-program/

“As a result of the Conservatives’ mismanagement, the Temporary Foreign Worker Program has failed to achieve its original objective of filling jobs when qualified Canadian workers cannot be found, and Liberals are calling for the program to be scaled back and re-focused on its original purpose,” said Mr. McCallum. “Between 2005 and 2012, the number of short-term foreign workers in this country more than doubled, with nearly as many temporary foreign workers being admitted in 2012 as there were permanent residents. Should this continue, temporary worker entries will outnumber permanent resident entries by 2015.”

The Liberal Party is therefore proposing immediate reforms to the program: the government must ensure real transparency and accountability in the program, which should begin with a full review of the program by the Auditor General, as well as the public disclosure of information concerning what jobs are being offered to temporary foreign workers and in what communities; it must require employers to demonstrate that every effort has been made to fill positions with Canadian workers and young Canadian workers in particular; and finally, the government should tighten the Labour Market Opinion approval process.

“The Liberal Party has repeatedly warned the Conservatives that abuses of this program have been hurting the middle class by driving down wages and displacing Canadian workers,” said Mr. McCallum. “Last year we proposed that a review of the program be conducted, but every Conservative MP voted down our motion as they claimed that a review was not necessary. It is only now, following a slew of bad press, that the Conservatives have acknowledged the program’s failures.”

The Harper Conservatives are placing a higher priority on outsourcing Canadian jobs to foreign workers than on training our labour force to match unprecedented skills shortages across the country. On their watch, the number of temporary foreign workers in Canada has ballooned by nearly 200,000 or 140% since 2005, growing to 338,189 workers in 2012. This has all occurred while many Canadians across the country are facing serious difficulty securing employment.

Well, apparently Liberals are quite anti-immigrant according to the new criteria set by a few select posters in this thread. They even hit all the talking points that are apparently xenophobic. Middle class, young workers, too many immigrants taking jobs that Canadians can do if they were trained for it, driving down wages, displacing Canadian workers. Trudeau himself was a huge opponent of the TFW program when run under Harper and campaigned to dramatically cut down on its use, citing unfairness to Canadians. In the end not only did he go back on his commitment to fix the program and stop abuse at the expense of Canadians, he doubled the amount of TFWs under his government (something which the Liberals themselves heavily criticized the Conservatives of doing).

https://www.theorca.ca/commentary/do...ruggle-7305252

Of course we now get claims (from gosh gee look who it is??? Could it be some of the usual suspects?) that the problem was never the TFW program itself, and any criticism of the program is now considered anti-immigrant rhetoric. Really. Quite odd take if we look at some past comments by a couple said select usual suspects when the TFW program was considered a Conservative failure at the time with some very interesting critics. Should we dig back those comments for fun?

Now we have this farce being presented. The only thing that changed throughout is the Liberal party stance and the usual suspects going along with whatever the stance of the day may be.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Of course we now get claims (from gosh gee look who it is??? Could it be some of the usual suspects?) that the problem was never the TFW program itself, and any criticism of the program is now considered anti-immigrant rhetoric.

It probably seems weird because you just made it up.

[powderjunkie]

I've got no issue with immigrants, I just don't like collared people.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Seems you answered your own question.

Nope

[Azure]

At this point does it really matter how and why and who is pushing it?

Its clearly an issue, and needs aggressive measures to fix it.

Canadians should be embarrassed that the UN is saying that our foreign worker programs creates an environment for workers that allows slavery like conditions.

Has nothing to do with being anti-immigrant.
Nothing.

But here we are telling other people 'oh you're just anti immigrant' because they say this is an issue.

[belsarius]

The TFW program is just another instance where people are trying to go all or nothing on the Liberals. I am not defending the program, I am actually very much against it, but I also think it is disingenuous to claim the Liberals are ignoring the issues, or that they shouldn't do anything since they caused it. As much as that is called "closing the barn door after the horses have left", I think the issues are also very much "Monday morning Quarterbacking".

I agree the program is out of control right now, and so do the Liberals. Yes there are ugly warts, and the UN is right to point them out, but I can also concede that there are companies that are following the rules properly and treating employees fairly.


But if we want to dig down some context..

1. The Liberals did actually reduce the number of TFWs significantly after taking power. Their rhetoric in 2013/2014 wasn't just talking out the side of their mouth. In 2015 the number of TFW permits dropped by 30% and didn't get back to 2014 levels until 2022, bottoming out in 2017 at 50% the size that Harper's Conservatives had.

Temporary Foreign Worker Program work permit holders in Canada from 2000 to 2022

2. There was a little thing that happened called COVID that disrupted employment across the world, and the reopening boom actually created a lot of jobs, pushing the unemployment rate in Canada to it's lowest level in 20 years. Clearly there was actual data and a real concern in some industries that they were not able to hire enough Canadians to meet demand.

Rate of unemployment in Canada from 2000 to 2023

3. The Liberals overdid it. The relaxed too many regulations, the pure amount of workers also meant the chances of abuse of the system increased and it got out of hand. But there was justifications for the changes, and a lot of push from industries. We have posters saying things like "the Liberals don't care and arn't doing anything", but when I point out they are doing something it is met with "well its their own fault"

It all makes sense why it was done, not some big nefarious scheme or some political blunder. It also makes sense how it is causing other issues now that unemployment is on the rise, and the system needs to be restricted again. How the next few months play out in regards to the TFW program is going to be key.

But honestly, if they did nothing, the discussion today would be how the Liberals allowed inflation to continue to grow by forcing companies to increase wages which increases costs to the consumer. Or how the Liberals hate the prairies and the agriculture industry because they ignored their calls for more workers. Or how they hurt the hospitality industry where they wouldn't have been able to fill all of the positions required post-COVID with the tourism bump.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by belsarius

The TFW program is just another instance where people are trying to go all or nothing on the Liberals. I am not defending the program, I am actually very much against it, but I also think it is disingenuous to claim the Liberals are ignoring the issues, or that they shouldn't do anything since they caused it. As much as that is called "closing the barn door after the horses have left", I think the issues are also very much "Monday morning Quarterbacking".

I agree the program is out of control right now, and so do the Liberals. Yes there are ugly warts, and the UN is right to point them out, but I can also concede that there are companies that are following the rules properly and treating employees fairly.


But if we want to dig down some context..

1. The Liberals did actually reduce the number of TFWs significantly after taking power. Their rhetoric in 2013/2014 wasn't just talking out the side of their mouth. In 2015 the number of TFW permits dropped by 30% and didn't get back to 2014 levels until 2022, bottoming out in 2017 at 50% the size that Harper's Conservatives had.

Temporary Foreign Worker Program work permit holders in Canada from 2000 to 2022

2. There was a little thing that happened called COVID that disrupted employment across the world, and the reopening boom actually created a lot of jobs, pushing the unemployment rate in Canada to it's lowest level in 20 years. Clearly there was actual data and a real concern in some industries that they were not able to hire enough Canadians to meet demand.

Rate of unemployment in Canada from 2000 to 2023

3. The Liberals overdid it. The relaxed too many regulations, the pure amount of workers also meant the chances of abuse of the system increased and it got out of hand. But there was justifications for the changes, and a lot of push from industries. We have posters saying things like "the Liberals don't care and arn't doing anything", but when I point out they are doing something it is met with "well its their own fault"

It all makes sense why it was done, not some big nefarious scheme or some political blunder. It also makes sense how it is causing other issues now that unemployment is on the rise, and the system needs to be restricted again. How the next few months play out in regards to the TFW program is going to be key.

But honestly, if they did nothing, the discussion today would be how the Liberals allowed inflation to continue to grow by forcing companies to increase wages which increases costs to the consumer. Or how the Liberals hate the prairies and the agriculture industry because they ignored their calls for more workers. Or how they hurt the hospitality industry where they wouldn't have been able to fill all of the positions required post-COVID with the tourism bump.

A post with actual thought put into it that doesn’t just devolve into frantic handwaving over the Liberals and accusing people of supporting the Liberals because they recognize the issue is deeper than simple partisan politics?

A rarity in this thread. Thanks for that.

Agree with everything you wrote. There are a lot of layers to this that people want to conveniently ignore. It’s not a good program and easily abused (despite the majority - 94% - being compliant). This is highlighted in the UN report, which has little to do with immigration and the number of TFW but, as iggy astutely pointed out, everything to do with workers rights (which is both a problem specific to the program and one that impacts all workers).

In fact, those that read the report know that it specifically states that reducing the number of TFW will not solve the problems outlined by the report. It also states that they were encouraged by proposed policies to address these issues, however warning the government not to fall into the same pitfalls created by previous policy changes.

Like chemgear noted, this program is effectively subsidizing some industries. I would add that this program, and immigration in general, is also subsidizing pensions and the Canadian economy in general.

Sure, some typical posters (we’ll call them “the usuals”) see these issues solely as excuses to further criticize the Liberals without critical thought. But any conversation around these issues are incomplete without frank discussion about our unsustainably low tax rates, low minimum wage, and the looming disaster of Canadian pensions.

The Canada people expect cannot be had for free. Hell, it can’t even be had for what we’re paying now. People complain about affordability, but go ahead and halt immigration and the TFW and see what happens without major increases and wages across the board. I don’t agree that what we have now is sustainable or the way to solve this, but the same people fighting against these things are the same people fighting against every other solution, and first in line to complain about having to pay for what they expect.

Canada is the ultimate “have our cake and eat it too” nation. It’s a bipartisan, multi-decade issue that needs to be addressed. And anyone trying to make it about one party is not a serious person.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Azure

At this point does it really matter how and why and who is pushing it?

Its clearly an issue, and needs aggressive measures to fix it.

Canadians should be embarrassed that the UN is saying that our foreign worker programs creates an environment for workers that allows slavery like conditions.

Has nothing to do with being anti-immigrant.
Nothing.

But here we are telling other people 'oh you're just anti immigrant' because they say this is an issue.

Criticizing the TFW program is completely fair game, it’s not a very good program.

Insinuating that it is the primary driver of wage suppression and/or overall declining working conditions with no real data to support your claim is in my opinion where you cross the line from being critical of the program to blaming immigrants for issues that are largely out of their control, whether that was your intention or not.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Of course we now get claims (from gosh gee look who it is??? Could it be some of the usual suspects?) that the problem was never the TFW program itself, and any criticism of the program is now considered anti-immigrant rhetoric. Really. Quite odd take if we look at some past comments by a couple said select usual suspects when the TFW program was considered a Conservative failure at the time with some very interesting critics. Should we dig back those comments for fun?

What makes you so afraid of actually naming the posters you’re trying to criticize that you have to consistently resort to passive aggressively calling them the usual suspects?

[CliffFletcher]

The CBC just did an in-depth piece on the labour market impact of TFWs. The main losers are young Canadians looking for work, especially recent immigrants.

Spoiler!

Andrew Chang has been doing a lot of good stuff in his About That series. The recent piece on inflation was another standout.

[GGG]

I don’t like the lack of a clear path to citizenship in the TFW program.

You are good enough to work for minimum wage and suppress Canadian wages but not good enough to be a citizen. All you get are some extra points in the immigration process.

[Ben_in_Canada]

https://thecanadianfutureparty.ca/

Being newer to town I'm not really familiar with any of the founders of this new party.
However, having recently gotten citizenship I am paying more attention and am just not liking much of what we have available to vote for (even if a year away).

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ben_in_Canada

https://thecanadianfutureparty.ca/

Being newer to town I'm not really familiar with any of the founders of this new party.
However, having recently gotten citizenship I am paying more attention and am just not liking much of what we have available to vote for (even if a year away).

Cardy comes across like a bit of a flake and a party jumper, he went from the NDP to Conservatives, probably because he read which way the wind blows.


He comes off as another Mad Max, he'll fund raise for his paycheck and get nowhere.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Cardy comes across like a bit of a flake and a party jumper, he went from the NDP to Conservatives, probably because he read which way the wind blows.


He comes off as another Mad Max, he'll fund raise for his paycheck and get nowhere.

Yeah, I am so in favour of a centrist party that has it's #### together, but that's my initial impressions of Cardy as well

[Calgary]

Wrong thread

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Cardy comes across like a bit of a flake and a party jumper, he went from the NDP to Conservatives, probably because he read which way the wind blows.


He comes off as another Mad Max, he'll fund raise for his paycheck and get nowhere.

I think he hates politics and is unwilling to play the party game so doesn’t fit anywhere and he is an opportunist. I view this as a positive trait relative to the current political landscape.

[Winsor_Pilates]

I don't know Cardy but the points on the website seem good.
Individual rights protected, appropriate defence spending, immigration with a functional system, increased competition to the telecom and airlines industries, public/private cooperation to build more housing.
This reads like what you'd expect a Liberal government to be doing.

[FlamesAddiction]

Not directly related to federal politics, but an issue that could have political repercussions.

The Teamsters union just gave notice to CPKC that they intend to go on strike in 4 days if they don't reach an agreement. At the same time, CN issued a lockout notice to their employees.

Be prepared for some serious supply chain issues and economic fallout if this drags on.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Not directly related to federal politics, but an issue that could have political repercussions.

The Teamsters union just gave notice to CPKC that they intend to go on strike in 4 days if they don't reach an agreement. At the same time, CN issued a lockout notice to their employees.

Be prepared for some serious supply chain issues and economic fallout if this drags on.

Amongst other things shipped by rail is chlorine, and apparently that is the only way it is shipped. Not sure if that is by regulation or a function of practicality. Regardless, chlorine is needed for water purification and most municipalities do not carry a large inventory - likely a few days at best. So besides a devastating hit to the economy there are some very serious health implications if a strike/lockout drags on. Canada has never been entirely without rail service before (in modern times), this would be a first.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Not directly related to federal politics, but an issue that could have political repercussions.

The Teamsters union just gave notice to CPKC that they intend to go on strike in 4 days if they don't reach an agreement. At the same time, CN issued a lockout notice to their employees.

Be prepared for some serious supply chain issues and economic fallout if this drags on.

I have no doubt that the Labour Minister will step in again and squash any attempt at a strike like he did recently with the WestJet AMEs.