Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[Locke]

Yeah! That'd be brilliant!

I'll buy the Bus-Shelter sign, have an inflatable arm guy and a sign-spinning intern! The junkies won't even want to stay at that station!

It'll crash their buzz!

Its brilliant!

[surferguy]

Originally Posted by Locke

I have recently signed my Intern up for a 'Sign-Spinning' Class.

"Taxes! Get yer Taxes done here! Taxes!!"

I'm also getting one of those inflatable arm guys.

Like I mentioned - Locke is out of his depth.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by surferguy

Like I mentioned - Locke is out of his depth.

I may be out of a lot of things but its the disrespect that the hurts the most. Other than the other thing...that hurts the most, but the disrespect hurts the second most!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I dunno, does everything need to be a left or right issue? Calgary needs expanded LRT service. Alberta would benefit from high speed rail. The federal government would be wise to invest in a project of this size and scope for all the reasons they say. "Investing in Canadians, the environment, reducing emissions" etc

Do we not collectively generate sufficient taxes from all sources to be able to build some rail? I mean countries and cities that are poor have better mass rail than Calgary, Alberta and Canada.

Sometimes you just need to get on with things and get them done and fast. It was like 40+ years of planning and consultation for Calgary's ring road for what is effectively moving dirt around, building a base/bridges/overpasses and laying the road surface in what was an open area.

I have a feeling in the coming days we are going to be given real bad news from the city regarding the size and the scale of the project given the costs. A project that was announced with funding in 2015 I believe. Absolutely nobody will be held to account regarding the mess, nobody who was on council, was mayor or working for the city will take any responsibility, neither will the province or the feds. Typical Canadian mediocrity.

Meanwhile in Ukraine, the rail system is STILL being able to move millions of people, including an astonishing amount of heads of state, dignitaries and world leaders, at a safe, reliable and effective pace.

In our capital of Ottawa, we still can't figure out their LRT woes. Edmonton has had enough LRT headaches to last a lifetime. We may be headed towards that here soon.

I wasn't make it a right or left issue, just that if you vote for politicians that propose "pay-as-you-go" budgeting, you either have to expect major cuts to pay for a train, or magic, or lies.

But to your suggesting that it would be a major win for the feds, I'd ask why they would bother? For the Liberals, they would be #### on at every turn. It doesn't benefit them, and it doesn't really benefit the rest of the country, since it is an Alberta only project. It also leads to a"me too" lineup from the rest of the provinces. For the Conservatives, they already have guaranteed votes, so why not buy them somewhere else? As a reward for their loyal voters? LOL.

It shouldn't be shocking to know that it is cheaper to build infrastructure in poorer countries than Canada, for many valid reasons.

The ring road delays were mostly due to treaty obligations, in that we couldn't just take the land. Just get on with it? How would you have moved this process along?

As to green line delays, it isn't all on the city. The province has done their share:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ayed-1.5971815


But ya, I am disappointing in council because they got browbeaten into a fairly poor plan that they are committed to now.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well it's not simple, there are many varying factors. But to make it basic?

- Geology
- Planning
- Politics

There was poor planning and other things were built first and the geology predicates that sometimes the train has be 'above ground' where we circle back to poor planning and other times when a train could be underground we didn' do it which is, again, when we circle back to 'poor planning.'

You missed one

[timun]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The ring road delays were mostly due to treaty obligations, in that we couldn't just take the land. Just get on with it? How would you have moved this process along?

Y'know what's funny? If the "just get on with things and get them done and fast" strategy was employed we probably would have colossally under-built Stoney Trail. Take for example the east leg, which was planned in part on the premise that it would help alleviate the traffic on Deerfoot. And it did!

... For about two years, after which traffic on Deerfoot was as bad as it had ever been.

So instead for the southwest leg, to minimize the risk of having to go back to the Tsuut'ina for another land swap deal, the province bargained for a crapload more land than they needed in the immediate term, and the road was built with an extra-wide median to allow for additional lanes to be added years from now without having to rebuild interchanges to accommodate.

And this is what people think of it:

Originally Posted by Table 5

I'm no engineer, and I'm sure there are a lot of factors that would make a train line more/less expensive, but I get the sense that we also sometimes go a little overboard with the size of our infrastructure. We tend to super-size a lot of things. Ie, when I look at Stoney Trail, in many places you have massive median gaps that you could land a fleet of A320's in, or interchanges/curves that just seems to go on forever (but then the speed limits don't match up). All that additional land, earthworks, concrete, and maintenance etc, can't be particularly cheap. Other countries seem to be able to build high quality roads on a much more efficient footprint... but we seem to always need the F350-sized option.

(not trying to pick on you, Table 5, it's just your comment couldn't have more perfectly illustrated this)

You get #### on for under-building stuff, you get #### on for over-building stuff... Infrastructure engineers just can't win. With respect to the Green Line, it doesn't matter what happens: there will always be a vocal portion of the populace who think it's a stupid over-built waste of money, another portion who think it was half-assed and should have been much more substantial, another portion who will be happy with it on day 1 but dissatisfied by day 700, and a silent portion from whom it's just "meh, whatever".

[KelVarnsen]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah! That'd be brilliant!

I'll buy the Bus-Shelter sign, have an inflatable arm guy and a sign-spinning intern! The junkies won't even want to stay at that station!

It'll crash their buzz!

Its brilliant!

This feels like a lot of overhead

[Ahuch]

Green line update to council today... Now the trains going from Eau Claire to Ogden, last 4 stations in the south are cut as well as Center Street station. Maintenance facility in Highfield somewhere.

[Looch City]

Watch Smith use this as excuse to pull funding entirely.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Looch City

Watch Smith use this as excuse to pull funding entirely.

It probably means having to build her airport train.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I'm no engineer, and I'm sure there are a lot of factors that would make a train line more/less expensive, but I get the sense that we also sometimes go a little overboard with the size of our infrastructure. We tend to super-size a lot of things. Ie, when I look at Stoney Trail, in many places you have massive median gaps that you could land a fleet of A320's in, or interchanges/curves that just seems to go on forever (but then the speed limits don't match up). All that additional land, earthworks, concrete, and maintenance etc, can't be particularly cheap. Other countries seem to be able to build high quality roads on a much more efficient footprint... but we seem to always need the F350-sized option.

Getting back to trains...these Green Line station designs aren't that egregious or anything (and the new low-floor design will help), but the European equivalent to many of our suburban LRT stations would be a basic sidewalk with a little grade separation and a basic shelter.

Spoiler!

At a stop like Ogden, that's basically what it should be. Just a slightly upgraded bus shelter.

Just a quick aside on the massive median gaps on the SW ring road. My understanding with talking with a guy working on the city connections to the ring road was due to the Tsu T’ina land area that this section is designed to have another highway run through it whereas the rest of the city can have a second ring road. Now some of the second ring road designs were scrapped but it was too late to redesign the Tsu Tina portion given the deadlines so the original design was built.

So while sometimes infrastructure seems over or under designed it is usually well thought out and considered for the important variables at the time. I’m a little surprised here that they didn’t decide to just plow though downtown on surface.

That was the right decision back in the day when they chose length over function and as a result our system was and is superior to edmontons. Here they are making the Edmonton choice build the expensive part expensive and hope. I disagree with it but understand the reasoning.

[Locke]

Hahahaha!!!

Some days you just can't make this stuff up.

I made peace with the Blue Ring.

I let the rubble they lied about as 'art' go.

This? This is a boondoggle of epic proportions.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GGG

Just a quick aside on the massive median gaps on the SW ring road. My understanding with talking with a guy working on the city connections to the ring road was due to the Tsu T’ina land area that this section is designed to have another highway run through it whereas the rest of the city can have a second ring road. Now some of the second ring road designs were scrapped but it was too late to redesign the Tsu Tina portion given the deadlines so the original design was built.

So while sometimes infrastructure seems over or under designed it is usually well thought out and considered for the important variables at the time. I’m a little surprised here that they didn’t decide to just plow though downtown on surface.

That was the right decision back in the day when they chose length over function and as a result our system was and is superior to edmontons. Here they are making the Edmonton choice build the expensive part expensive and hope. I disagree with it but understand the reasoning.

CP Tracks and 7 Ave necessitate some degree of under or over. I think there is a missed opportunity to refurbish the existing underpass on 1 St SW.

But really the north line should have been a lot simpler, especially since we're starting to accept ideas like running at grade down Centre St. Just run all the way down the bridge and worry about connecting the lines later. Or...don't. The beauty of busses for the SE is that all this complicated core stuff wouldn't have to be a big issue. Ideally you'd prioritze the routes in other ways.

[The Fisher Account]

The UCP keeps mentioning this Grand Central station.. where will it be? Is this even necessary?

[81MC]

I’m way behind, but I understand the revised green line scope is Lynnwood to Au Claire? What in the actual ####? Is there a lesser needed thing in all of Calgary? Ogden Road into downtown is a dream…what is being accomplished with this exactly?

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by 81MC

I’m way behind, but I understand the revised green line scope is Lynnwood to Au Claire? What in the actual ####? Is there a lesser needed thing in all of Calgary? Ogden Road into downtown is a dream…what is being accomplished with this exactly?

The key right now is just to start this thing.

The rest is all politics.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

What is being accomplished is they are building the start of the Green Line.

I think it would be nice if they made it useful to the transit-using public though. Oh yay, consolation prize for the north central users is a BRT.

[Ahuch]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I think it would be nice if they made it useful to the transit-using public though. Oh yay, consolation prize for the north central users is a BRT.

The more I think about it I just can't figure out how this makes sense. There's so little population moving between the areas that it covers.

I assume that you'll have current express buses that run this route end at the Lynnwood station, but that's probably making their commutes worse by adding another mode with less stops downtown.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

But really the north line should have been a lot simpler, especially since we're starting to accept ideas like running at grade down Centre St. Just run all the way down the bridge and worry about connecting the lines later. Or...don't.

Agreed, at this point they should just scrap the south line and re-focus back to the north where the population is, with a mandate to keep it simple as possible. Right up Centre, on the surface, as far north as money allows, with super basic stations (like my euro example above).

The south line as it stands works out to almost a billion dollars per station (much of it through industrial areas of town). That's insane.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Agreed, at this point they should just scrap the south line and re-focus back to the north where the population is, with a mandate to keep it simple as possible. Right up Centre, on the surface, as far north as money allows, with super basic stations (like my euro example above).

The south line as it stands works out to almost a billion dollars per station (much of it through industrial areas of town). That's insane.

If cost is already the prime issue, is crossing the river supposed to be.. cheaper? And where are you supposed to build the train barns?