Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Going under the river was always going to be the expensive choice(and unnecessary, and with it's own drawbacks). It was never really a serious option, and those can't be the "underground rivers" she is talking about. That just reeks of some blabbing she heard in a handshake line from some doofus "geologist" that she would have replied "wow, ok that's interesting, I haven't heard that before. We definitely won't be doing that." This is how our government functions now.

There are definitely some underground systems which need to be worked around but that likely isn't too difficult. There are a number of springs which emerge around Nose Hill park and the north-central part of the city. I believe that one of the school fields around Panorama has a spring that dumps into it. Confederation Park and Highland Park are also areas where springs emerge.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Yeah and i don't think people really want to take the train to the airport carrying all that luggage. I would't.

Once I landed in Newark to go to New York. Took the train, with my luggage, and there was hardly anyone on it.

I think the problem is that if you’re not a frequent traveller to a specific location, public transit options can be a bit of an unknown, even if it is super convenient people will just opt for a taxi or uber rather than trying to decipher a new transit system their first time in a new city.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Are you sure you’re not Rick Bell?

I propose a test to find out. Someone needs to take Rick Bell out for wings, and see what his tolerance is for anything spicier than "salt and pepper".

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ya, but that was politicians doing things "in principle" before "reality" hit them over the head.

They implied it was in principle, but even after the significant cost overruns announced in 2017 the planners kept the tunnel to 20th Avenue rather than use a cheaper option so that they could at least reach a usable terminus at 64th.

They only had to cut the full tunnel in 2019 because they no longer had enough money to reach Shepard.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Are you sure you’re not Rick Bell?

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I propose a test to find out. Someone needs to take Rick Bell out for wings, and see what his tolerance is for anything spicier than "salt and pepper".

Ya know...there are downsides to Train Stations in residential neighbourhoods and I can understand that.

And my spice tolerance has nothing to do with it! A new Taco place opened up in Ogden and I got the Verde sauce and survived!!

Its actually very good. I cant remember having had Turkey in a Taco before but they brine it and its actually very good!

Besides the point!

[lazypucker]

The future BRT routes are good (if they happen). There are a fair bit of North-South routes, but I still think there is a lack of East-West routes. For example: Crowfoot to Airport nothing, Shawnessy to McKenzie Towne nothing.

[curves2000]

From some of the rumblings that are happening out there, it appears likely that the Green Line cost overruns are going to be massive and perhaps the UCP got ahead of it with an "We told you so" type mentality.

No doubt that delays recently have led to cost overruns but there is also doubt that the planners and the people in charge, who were so adamant that there was enough wiggle room to withstand cost over runs, are also at fault here.

I am not sure why it's so hard and so expensive to build decent train service in Canada.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by curves2000

From some of the rumblings that are happening out there, it appears likely that the Green Line cost overruns are going to be massive and perhaps the UCP got ahead of it with an "We told you so" type mentality.

No doubt that delays recently have led to cost overruns but there is also doubt that the planners and the people in charge, who were so adamant that there was enough wiggle room to withstand cost over runs, are also at fault here.

I am not sure why it's so hard and so expensive to build decent train service in Canada.

Well it's not simple, there are many varying factors. But to make it basic?

- Geology
- Planning

There was poor planning and other things were built first and the geology predicates that sometimes the train has be 'above ground' where we circle back to poor planning and other times when a train could be underground we didn' do it which is, again, when we circle back to 'poor planning.'

[Fuzz]

It's above ground in sections because it is cheaper, that's it. I don't think their are any insurmountable engineering challenges that couldn't be overcome with endless money.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well it's not simple, there are many varying factors. But to make it basic?

- Geology
- Planning

There was poor planning and other things were built first and the geology predicates that sometimes the train has be 'above ground' where we circle back to poor planning and other times when a train could be underground we didn' do it which is, again, when we circle back to 'poor planning.'

It doesn't seem like it should really be that difficult or expensive overall. No project of this size and scope is ever a cake walk but it's not like rail and laying track is some sort of new concept.

Even with the discussion of having a connection to the airport, how is it that this is even really a large discussion? You would think it would be able to be done in a relatively easy fashion. We aren't talking about mass distances or significant challenges along the route. This isn't like building the English channel tunnel or a subway in one of the oldest cities in the world.

I do think we struggle to get some basic concepts completed here in Canada. There are few high speed rail links that are as logical, relatively easy and beneficial then an Calgary to Edmonton route. Go alongside the highway, mostly flat land without major obstacles. The highway traffic is busy, strong demand for goods and people to be moved and the provinces is growing. Get the feds involved, reduce cars and emissions, create jobs, get people moving.

Sure it's a money thing but let's put our money where our mouths are as well and get on with things too. Canada is really behind in some of this basic stuff.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by curves2000

It doesn't seem like it should really be that difficult or expensive overall. No project of this size and scope is ever a cake walk but it's not like rail and laying track is some sort of new concept.

Even with the discussion of having a connection to the airport, how is it that this is even really a large discussion? You would think it would be able to be done in a relatively easy fashion. We aren't talking about mass distances or significant challenges along the route. This isn't like building the English channel tunnel or a subway in one of the oldest cities in the world.

I do think we struggle to get some basic concepts completed here in Canada. There are few high speed rail links that are as logical, relatively easy and beneficial then an Calgary to Edmonton route. Go alongside the highway, mostly flat land without major obstacles. The highway traffic is busy, strong demand for goods and people to be moved and the provinces is growing. Get the feds involved, reduce cars and emissions, create jobs, get people moving.

Sure it's a money thing but let's put our money where our mouths are as well and get on with things too. Canada is really behind in some of this basic stuff.

So you wouldn't complain about higher taxes, and vote for parties that support spending, rather than cutting?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well it's not simple, there are many varying factors. But to make it basic?

- Geology
- Planning

I'm no engineer, and I'm sure there are a lot of factors that would make a train line more/less expensive, but I get the sense that we also sometimes go a little overboard with the size of our infrastructure. We tend to super-size a lot of things. Ie, when I look at Stoney Trail, in many places you have massive median gaps that you could land a fleet of A320's in, or interchanges/curves that just seems to go on forever (but then the speed limits don't match up). All that additional land, earthworks, concrete, and maintenance etc, can't be particularly cheap. Other countries seem to be able to build high quality roads on a much more efficient footprint... but we seem to always need the F350-sized option.

Getting back to trains...these Green Line station designs aren't that egregious or anything (and the new low-floor design will help), but the European equivalent to many of our suburban LRT stations would be a basic sidewalk with a little grade separation and a basic shelter.

Spoiler!

At a stop like Ogden, that's basically what it should be. Just a slightly upgraded bus shelter.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I'm no engineer, and I'm sure there are a lot of factors that would make a train line more/less expensive, but I get the sense that we also sometimes go a little overboard with the size of our infrastructure. We tend to super-size a lot of things. Ie, when I look at Stoney Trail, in many places you have massive median gaps that you could land a fleet of A320's in, or interchanges/curves that just seems to go on forever (but then the speed limits don't match up). All that additional land, earthworks, concrete, and maintenance etc, can't be particularly cheap. Other countries seem to be able to build high quality roads on a much more efficient footprint... but we seem to always need the F350-sized option.

Getting back to trains...these Green Line station designs aren't that egregious or anything (and the new low-floor design will help), but the European equivalent to many of our suburban LRT stations would be a basic sidewalk with a little grade separation and a basic shelter.

Spoiler!

At a stop like Ogden, that's basically what it should be. Just a slightly upgraded bus shelter.

Dude...I'm with you 100%.

Pretty bang on in my opinion.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Table 5

At a stop like Ogden, that's basically what it should be. Just a slightly upgraded bus shelter.

It's basically that - with a small public square in front of it- which appears to bring the front of the station to Ogden road, instead of hiding it from the main road by putting any kind of building in front.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by getbak

That's the important thing. An airport rail connection is great, but in terms of priorities and bang-for-your-buck, there are things that should be higher priorities.

Keep in mind, Vancouver only got its connection to the airport for the 2010 Olympics and Toronto for the 2014 Pan-Am Games. Montreal's is finally under construction and is expected to open in 2027.

Those three cities are all significantly bigger than Calgary and their airports are significantly busier than Calgary. Toronto and Montreal's metro systems are much more mature than the CTrain system.



The Green Line going from north to south should be the top priority (although, the airport link should cost significantly less).

Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto are also different cities than Calgary. Those cities have people visiting primarily to go to their downtown areas. When I fly out/in of Vancouver I often take the line from YVR, and see that it's very busy. People are catching a train to their hotels in downtown Vancouver, and it's a very valuable service.

Does that make sense for Calgary? Obviously, downtown Calgary isn't as big of a draw as the downtown cores of other cities, although that 's changing. I do think people are understating how many business people from out of town could benefit from a train from the airport to their hotel downtown, which would presumably be near an office they are visiting. Also, during the Stampede everyone is going downtown.

[surferguy]

Locke will sponsor the advertising done at the bus shelter. Table 5 you have my authority to spend Lockes money on the adverts. Be bold, like really bold. Don’t take no for an answer, Locke is out of his depth.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by blankall

Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto are also different cities than Calgary. Those cities have people visiting primarily to go to their downtown areas. When I fly out/in of Vancouver I often take the line from YVR, and see that it's very busy. People are catching a train to their hotels in downtown Vancouver, and it's a very valuable service.

Does that make sense for Calgary? Obviously, downtown Calgary isn't as big of a draw as the downtown cores of other cities, although that 's changing. I do think people are understating how many business people from out of town could benefit from a train from the airport to their hotel downtown, which would presumably be near an office they are visiting. Also, during the Stampede everyone is going downtown.

Montreal's spans the whole island basically. There are lots of areas there that are very, very lively that aren't downtown.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So you wouldn't complain about higher taxes, and vote for parties that support spending, rather than cutting?

I dunno, does everything need to be a left or right issue? Calgary needs expanded LRT service. Alberta would benefit from high speed rail. The federal government would be wise to invest in a project of this size and scope for all the reasons they say. "Investing in Canadians, the environment, reducing emissions" etc

Do we not collectively generate sufficient taxes from all sources to be able to build some rail? I mean countries and cities that are poor have better mass rail than Calgary, Alberta and Canada.

Sometimes you just need to get on with things and get them done and fast. It was like 40+ years of planning and consultation for Calgary's ring road for what is effectively moving dirt around, building a base/bridges/overpasses and laying the road surface in what was an open area.

I have a feeling in the coming days we are going to be given real bad news from the city regarding the size and the scale of the project given the costs. A project that was announced with funding in 2015 I believe. Absolutely nobody will be held to account regarding the mess, nobody who was on council, was mayor or working for the city will take any responsibility, neither will the province or the feds. Typical Canadian mediocrity.

Meanwhile in Ukraine, the rail system is STILL being able to move millions of people, including an astonishing amount of heads of state, dignitaries and world leaders, at a safe, reliable and effective pace.

In our capital of Ottawa, we still can't figure out their LRT woes. Edmonton has had enough LRT headaches to last a lifetime. We may be headed towards that here soon.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I dunno, does everything need to be a left or right issue? Calgary needs expanded LRT service. Alberta would benefit from high speed rail. The federal government would be wise to invest in a project of this size and scope for all the reasons they say. "Investing in Canadians, the environment, reducing emissions" etc

Do we not collectively generate sufficient taxes from all sources to be able to build some rail? I mean countries and cities that are poor have better mass rail than Calgary, Alberta and Canada.

Sometimes you just need to get on with things and get them done and fast. It was like 40+ years of planning and consultation for Calgary's ring road for what is effectively moving dirt around, building a base/bridges/overpasses and laying the road surface in what was an open area.

I have a feeling in the coming days we are going to be given real bad news from the city regarding the size and the scale of the project given the costs. A project that was announced with funding in 2015 I believe. Absolutely nobody will be held to account regarding the mess, nobody who was on council, was mayor or working for the city will take any responsibility, neither will the province or the feds. Typical Canadian mediocrity.

Meanwhile in Ukraine, the rail system is STILL being able to move millions of people, including an astonishing amount of heads of state, dignitaries and world leaders, at a safe, reliable and effective pace.

In our capital of Ottawa, we still can't figure out their LRT woes. Edmonton has had enough LRT headaches to last a lifetime. We may be headed towards that here soon.

Fuzz thinks problems are fixed with money. In actuality, problems are fixed with competence. And Canadian governments and bureaucracies are so toxic
that competent people stay the hell away.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by surferguy

Locke will sponsor the advertising done at the bus shelter. Table 5 you have my authority to spend Lockes money on the adverts. Be bold, like really bold. Don’t take no for an answer, Locke is out of his depth.

I have recently signed my Intern up for a 'Sign-Spinning' Class.

"Taxes! Get yer Taxes done here! Taxes!!"

I'm also getting one of those inflatable arm guys.