[Rumour] LeBrun: Flames, Devils reignite Markstrom trade talks (again); other teams interested

[robertsfanatic]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

If the deal was done after the deadline, makes me wonder if 10OA is involved or not.

Hard to understand why he’d bring that up to the media in his most recent scrum if it was already packaged in a deal.

wanted to wait to ensure they weren't trading away 1st overall and the mention of the pick preps the NJ fanbase so there is no meltdown.

10th overall it is!!!

[Flames1217]

I still think it's Markstrom retained plus pick for Mercer.

NJ won't really be able to keep him long term and he is clearly a luxury within thier lineup. NJ can keep the 10th (would be crazy to trade any 10th overall for a 35 year old goalie no matter how good he is) and deal from a position of strength. Hotlz is cheaper now and for the foreseeable future and this would allow them to go big game hunting with the 10th if needed.

[stemit14]

I would be so happy if Conroy can pry 10th overall from New Jersey for Markstrom. That would be such a fleecing even if the flames retained 50% IMO. I agree that Markstrom is a solid #1 goalie and that he could be a big piece to getting New Jersey back to the playoffs but I think the smartest teams are ones that traverse the ups and downs of building a team a rather than force it. There is a decent chance this will be the highest pick New Jersey makes for the next 4-5 years and the player picked at 10th overall has a good shot at being an impact player for them in 2-3 years… right in their contention window when they will need cheap, young talent to step in. To trade that pick would be very short-sighted of their GM and would feel like a bit of a panic move. If it were the flip side, I would not want Conroy trading a top 10 pick for a 34 year old goalie.

I understand that the desire to get back in is strong… but pretty much everything that could go wrong did go wrong for New Jersey this year and they were still fighting for a playoff spot till the last two weeks of the season. And goaltending is voodoo… their two goaltenders might both put up better numbers than Markstrom next year. One year ago today, the flames would likely have had to attach a first round pick to get a team to take on Markstrom… now, there are legit discussions about getting 10th overall for Markstrom.

All this is just to say how incredible it would be if Conroy pulls it off. Really hoping he can. It would be a monumental step to kick off this rebuild.

[CF84]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

If the deal was done after the deadline, makes me wonder if 10OA is involved or not.

Hard to understand why he’d bring that up to the media in his most recent scrum if it was already packaged in a deal.

He could be preparing the fan-base so there isn't as much outrage as if the pick was traded without any warning. Now the fan-base is aware that the #10 pick will potentially be used as ammunition for the acquisition of a goaltender.

[really?]

Originally Posted by stemit14

I would be so happy if Conroy can pry 10th overall from New Jersey for Markstrom. That would be such a fleecing even if the flames retained 50% IMO. I agree that Markstrom is a solid #1 goalie and that he could be a big piece to getting New Jersey back to the playoffs but I think the smartest teams are ones that traverse the ups and downs of building a team a rather than force it. There is a decent chance this will be the highest pick New Jersey makes for the next 4-5 years and the player picked at 10th overall has a good shot at being an impact player for them in 2-3 years… right in their contention window when they will need cheap, young talent to step in. To trade that pick would be very short-sighted of their GM and would feel like a bit of a panic move. If it were the flip side, I would not want Conroy trading a top 10 pick for a 34 year old goalie.

I understand that the desire to get back in is strong… but pretty much everything that could go wrong did go wrong for New Jersey this year and they were still fighting for a playoff spot till the last two weeks of the season. And goaltending is voodoo… their two goaltenders might both put up better numbers than Markstrom next year. One year ago today, the flames would likely have had to attach a first round pick to get a team to take on Markstrom… now, there are legit discussions about getting 10th overall for Markstrom.

All this is just to say how incredible it would be if Conroy pulls it off. Really hoping he can. It would be a monumental step to kick off this rebuild.

Agree with your sentiment that a top 10 pick is a steeo return for Markstrom and a deal that I wouldn't want to see the Flames make, but last season was a cautionary tale for the Devils. A young team can become disjointed without solid goaltending to help them gel, and the wheels literally came off the Devils in the last quarter of the season. The components are there, but without quality goaltending some of those players could begin to regress. As many who have played or coached, the game is much easier to play moving forward and having a constant worry about what can happen once the puck gets into your zone weighs on a team.

Not saying that Markstrom is the only potential solution, but given what happened last year the Devils have to effectively address the goaltending situation or risk stunting the development of the group they have assembled. In their situation I would think a team having the answer to that problem (potentially Markstrom) would be wanting this year's first, at a minimum. If Jersey thinks they can address the situation for less, good luck to them, but they'd be fools to risk a repeat of last year.

Think of the Hamonic deal as a comparison. The Flames felt they were poised to enter a window and paid a premium to acquire a player who was capable of providing some needed stability. In retrospect, they made a bad call, but I understand the logic. I believe the Devils find themselves in similar straights, and they have a better collection of talent then that Flames team possessed. Paying the 10th for a top tier goalie may be a necessity, or they can try do it on the cheap and see how that works out......

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by really?

Agree with your sentiment that a top 10 pick is a steeo return for Markstrom and a deal that I wouldn't want to see the Flames make, but last season was a cautionary tale for the Devils. A young team can become disjointed without solid goaltending to help them gel, and the wheels literally came off the Devils in the last quarter of the season. The components are there, but without quality goaltending some of those players could begin to regress. As many who have played or coached, the game is much easier to play moving forward and having a constant worry about what can happen once the puck gets into your zone weighs on a team.

Not saying that Markstrom is the only potential solution, but given what happened last year the Devils have to effectively address the goaltending situation or risk stunting the development of the group they have assembled. In their situation I would think a team having the answer to that problem (potentially Markstrom) would be wanting this year's first, at a minimum. If Jersey thinks they can address the situation for less, good luck to them, but they'd be fools to risk a repeat of last year.

Think of the Hamonic deal as a comparison. The Flames felt they were poised to enter a window and paid a premium to acquire a player who was capable of providing some needed stability. In retrospect, they made a bad call, but I understand the logic. I believe the Devils find themselves in similar straights, and they have a better collection of talent then that Flames team possessed. Paying the 10th for a top tier goalie may be a necessity, or they can try do it on the cheap and see how that works out......

Good point. And a great comparison with the Hamonic trade. The flames also tried to do the “cheap” options for goaltending as well… constantly going after older goalies that were legit starters but cheaper than acquiring a top tier goaltender during the years when the team entered its contention window (Hillier, Elliott, Smith). To this day, I think those goaltending choices contributed to what made that core so inconsistent - they were developed in the NHL with goalies that consistently let in terrible goals at terrible times. All 3 of those goaltenders were famous for letting in a bad early goal during their times as starters in Calgary. I bet if you look back through most of those years and the years after, the flames were more often outplaying their opponents but not necessarily winning many games they deserved to win. That makes skilled players frustrated and hesitant to be confident. Also makes them start to abandon defensive structure trying to do too much because they are afraid even a single harmless shot will go in.

So from that perspective, I can see wanting to fix that problem now before it starts to hinder the development of the young players on the devils. Let’s hope that will make the Devils’ GM pull the trigger on trading 10th overall for Markstrom.

[really?]

Originally Posted by stemit14

Good point. And a great comparison with the Hamonic trade. The flames also tried to do the “cheap” options for goaltending as well… constantly going after older goalies that were legit starters but cheaper than acquiring a top tier goaltender during the years when the team entered its contention window (Hillier, Elliott, Smith). To this day, I think those goaltending choices contributed to what made that core so inconsistent - they were developed in the NHL with goalies that consistently let in terrible goals at terrible times. All 3 of those goaltenders were famous for letting in a bad early goal during their times as starters in Calgary. I bet if you look back through most of those years and the years after, the flames were more often outplaying their opponents but not necessarily winning many games they deserved to win. That makes skilled players frustrated and hesitant to be confident. Also makes them start to abandon defensive structure trying to do too much because they are afraid even a single harmless shot will go in.

So from that perspective, I can see wanting to fix that problem now before it starts to hinder the development of the young players on the devils. Let’s hope that will make the Devils’ GM pull the trigger on trading 10th overall for Markstrom.

Bad goaltending can lead to abandoning structure as you suggest, but in a pressurized situation it can also lead to over emphasizing the defensive shell. I think Jersey largely abandoned their defensive philosophy last year, but with a new coach on board, if goaltending is suspect the reins will likely be tightened by necessity. That collection of skill doesn't need to be "Suttered."

If Fitzgerald can find a way to get a top tender for less, then good on him, but you have to give to get and for a team in their situation pick 10 is not too high a cost. It may be a hard deal to sell to the fans, but if they enter the season with Jake Allen or Joe Bloke trying to fend off pucks Fitzgerald will have some real explaining to do.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Flames1217

I still think it's Markstrom retained plus pick for Mercer.

NJ won't really be able to keep him long term and he is clearly a luxury within thier lineup. NJ can keep the 10th (would be crazy to trade any 10th overall for a 35 year old goalie no matter how good he is) and deal from a position of strength. Hotlz is cheaper now and for the foreseeable future and this would allow them to go big game hunting with the 10th if needed.

I don't see it. If the Devils were willing to part with Mercer they would have gotten Markstrom at the deadline last year. Fitz has been pretty abdamnent that Mercer is off the table.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I don't see it. If the Devils were willing to part with Mercer they would have gotten Markstrom at the deadline last year. Fitz has been pretty abdamnent that Mercer is off the table.

Not only that, but with both teams' current situations, Mercer is way more valuable to the Devils & their win now stage, whereas the 10th overall pick (even though one could argue is *more* valuable than Mercer) is easily arguably more valuable to the Flames/less valuable to NJ.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Flames1217

I still think it's Markstrom retained plus pick for Mercer.

NJ won't really be able to keep him long term and he is clearly a luxury within thier lineup. NJ can keep the 10th (would be crazy to trade any 10th overall for a 35 year old goalie no matter how good he is) and deal from a position of strength. Hotlz is cheaper now and for the foreseeable future and this would allow them to go big game hunting with the 10th if needed.

Mercer helps them now.

The coaches trust him now.

Who knows when the 10th overall pick makes the roster, much less earns the coach’s trust to be out on the ice in key playoff situations.

Mercer is already that guy.

Ordinarily, the price would be high for a goalie.

But Jersey doesn’t have any other major needs.

They don’t need a centre.

They were so flush with wingers they gave us Sharangovich.

They’re deep on the blue line to the point posters have argued to me the inclusion of Rasmus Andersson does nothing for them.

They need a goalie.

Their Trump card to beat any competing offer for whoever they want is the 10th overall pick.

They want Markstrom.

It costs what it costs.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by really?

Agree with your sentiment that a top 10 pick is a steeo return for Markstrom and a deal that I wouldn't want to see the Flames make, but last season was a cautionary tale for the Devils. A young team can become disjointed without solid goaltending to help them gel, and the wheels literally came off the Devils in the last quarter of the season. The components are there, but without quality goaltending some of those players could begin to regress. As many who have played or coached, the game is much easier to play moving forward and having a constant worry about what can happen once the puck gets into your zone weighs on a team.

Not saying that Markstrom is the only potential solution, but given what happened last year the Devils have to effectively address the goaltending situation or risk stunting the development of the group they have assembled. In their situation I would think a team having the answer to that problem (potentially Markstrom) would be wanting this year's first, at a minimum. If Jersey thinks they can address the situation for less, good luck to them, but they'd be fools to risk a repeat of last year.

Think of the Hamonic deal as a comparison. The Flames felt they were poised to enter a window and paid a premium to acquire a player who was capable of providing some needed stability. In retrospect, they made a bad call, but I understand the logic. I believe the Devils find themselves in similar straights, and they have a better collection of talent then that Flames team possessed. Paying the 10th for a top tier goalie may be a necessity, or they can try do it on the cheap and see how that works out......

And sometimes it even works. In the trade that sent Brett Hull to the Blues for Ramage and Wamsley, it was the contributions of Ramage that put the Flames over the top to win the Stanley Cup, even though Hull was clearly the superior player.

The Stanley Cup is hard to win. So if a deal that involves giving up the more valuable long-term asset gets you a return that helps you to win when you are in your competitive window, and your gamble works, it's worth it.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

And sometimes it even works. In the trade that sent Brett Hull to the Blues for Ramage and Wamsley, it was the contributions of Ramage that put the Flames over the top to win the Stanley Cup, even though Hull was clearly the superior player (and went on to win the Cup with the Blues, so it was a win-win deal in a sense, even though the Blues got the younger and more skilled player).

The Stanley Cup is hard to win. So if a deal that involves giving up the more valuable long-term asset gets you a return that helps you to win when you are in your competitive window, and your gamble works, it's worth it.

Hull never won a cup with the Blues, but he did put them on the map as a hockey team.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Hull never won a cup with the Blues, but he did put them on the map as a hockey team.

Yes, you're right, what he did there was build a Hall of Fame career.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by CF84

He could be preparing the fan-base so there isn't as much outrage as if the pick was traded without any warning. Now the fan-base is aware that the #10 pick will potentially be used as ammunition for the acquisition of a goaltender.

If that were the case, why would he talk about trading it for a goalie in their team’s age range or a little older? If he were prepping the fan base to trade the 10th for Markstrom, he’d say it’s on the table for a high end goalie that’ll help us win playoff games. He’d really emphasis that point.

The same with this trade being done since just after the trade deadline. Why would conroy let Markstrom play if a deal was done in principle? Markstrom could have gotten hurt or blew up even worse than he did after the deadline scuttling a potential deal or opening it up for renegotiation.

It feels likely that something will get done with New Jersey — the fit is too good — but until the deal is registered with the nhl, it’s not done.

[really?]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

And sometimes it even works. In the trade that sent Brett Hull to the Blues for Ramage and Wamsley, it was the contributions of Ramage that put the Flames over the top to win the Stanley Cup, even though Hull was clearly the superior player.

The Stanley Cup is hard to win. So if a deal that involves giving up the more valuable long-term asset gets you a return that helps you to win when you are in your competitive window, and your gamble works, it's worth it.

On point. In the Devils case, as was pointed out in another post, the big piece they are missing is a goaltender. That's a pretty big piece. Bigger than a single defenseman, bigger than a forward. That's why top tier goalies rarely move, and that's why when they do the price should be substantial. Markstrom, or his equivalent, could be the distance between the Devils and a cup. If they were to win the cup, or in their position even win a couple of rounds in the playoffs, the 10th overall pick would be a small price to pay given their current situation in net.

There is no way to know how any of this works out, but if the Devils do move #10 for a top goaltender, it would be hard to suggest they were acting impulsively or without prudence.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Mercer helps them now.

The coaches trust him now.

Who knows when the 10th overall pick makes the roster, much less earns the coach’s trust to be out on the ice in key playoff situations.

Mercer is already that guy.

Ordinarily, the price would be high for a goalie.

But Jersey doesn’t have any other major needs.

They don’t need a centre.

They were so flush with wingers they gave us Sharangovich.

They’re deep on the blue line to the point posters have argued to me the inclusion of Rasmus Andersson does nothing for them.

They need a goalie.

Their Trump card to beat any competing offer for whoever they want is the 10th overall pick.

They want Markstrom.

It costs what it costs.

I agree with your take on Markstrom, but teams are always looking to upgrade. They didn’t give up sharangovich because they were flush with wingers. They gave him up because they got another — better in most people’s minds — winger in Toffoli.

One of the snags in these discussions— and part of the hardball over the trade deadline— might be partly around that deal. Fitzgerald is probably feeling it a bit internally and externally that he gave up a potentially better winger for one year of Toffoli who scored some goals but probably didn’t move the needle anymore than sharangovich if he had been given the same d chance.

If I were a New Jersey fan, I’d be pretty pissed if Fitz made another deal where he clearly got the short end of the stick. Conroy would look like a bit of a puppet master and no GM wants to be taken twice by a colleague. Once is enough.

[ReinhartonD]

Heard Kevin Woodley talking recently about how Markie's saved above expected was best in the league for a good part of the season--better than Hellebuyck--and there may be some teams that don't hate the cap hit and like the term, since some teams think they have their next long-term goalie in the system, but he just needs time and mentoring from someone like Markstrom. I think he's got more value than some of us might believe.

[CF84]

I'd reply to you YyjFlames, but it won't let me for some reason.

"If that were the case, why would he talk about trading it for a goalie in their team’s age range or a little older?"

Where did Fitz say that? I heard him speak about giving his young and talented team a chance by adding a good number one, but I don't remember him saying what you claim. Could you find the quote for me? Because I can't seem to find what you're saying and I'm not saying I don't believe you.

The closest thing I could find was: "If we feel it helps us now and in the foreseeable future, then, yes, I'm listening."

Markstrom helps both now and in the foreseeable future, but not much beyond that. I don't see mention of the goaltenders age in that quote...just that they need a great goalie for their young team filled with wasted potential.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by ReinhartonD

Heard Kevin Woodley talking recently about how Markie's saved above expected was best in the league for a good part of the season--better than Hellebuyck--and there may be some teams that don't hate the cap hit and like the term, since some teams think they have their next long-term goalie in the system, but he just needs time and mentoring from someone like Markstrom. I think he's got more value than some of us might believe.

Dude single handedly kept the Flames out of the top 5 of the draft. No joke. From his return after the broken finger to the deadline, he was one of, if not the best goalie in the league during that stretch.

He yoked that team out of quicksand only to find a bog at the deadline. And he also kept them in the hunt for a playoff spot for far too long .

The only time during the season where Markstrom was weak was post deadline. He wasn't the issue at the beginning of the year, he treaded water while the rest were drowning.

He's got value for two seasons. Max retention puts it in the stratusphere.

[Mindtravellee]

Any chance they might trade for both Valdar and Markstrom if Allen is coming back?

Would make for an interesting trade