Israel declares war on Hamas

[PsYcNeT]

There are many factors here that make this a lopsided conversation however.

a) they don't believe Palestinians are guilt-free; they voted for Hamas (despite no elections being held for 17 years and more than half the current population being under 18)

b) they don't believe Palestinians are human; the lives of Palestinians are worth less than those of Israelis, by orders of magnitude

c) Sins of the father; Children are an acceptable target because they see this as an actual War, despite Hamas not being an internationally recognized government nor Palestine an internationally recognized independent country

How do you have a legitimate conversation when these are the stances held by others?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

There are many factors here that make this a lopsided conversation however.

a) they don't believe Palestinians are guilt-free; they voted for Hamas (despite no elections being held for 17 years and more than half the current population being under 18)

b) they don't believe Palestinians are human; the lives of Palestinians are worth less than those of Israelis, by orders of magnitude

c) Sins of the father; Children are an acceptable target because they see this as an actual War, despite Hamas not being an internationally recognized government nor Palestine an internationally recognized independent country

How do you have a legitimate conversation when these are the stances held by others?

You don't, you just have to keep reminding them they are on the wrong side of humanity. Maybe one day they will figure it out. You'd think if they believe in any sort of god, they'd be a little concerned as to how their afterlife will go. Not great, Jerry, not great.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You don't, you just have to keep reminding them they are an the wrong side of humanity. Maybe one day they will figure it out. You'd think if they believe in any sort of god, they'd be a little concerned as to how their afterlife will go. Not great, Jerry, not great.

They don't care. They're not capable.
They've been brainwashed into believing that they're special, the chosen ones. And that they're victims.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Has anyone, anywhere ever suggested that? Ok, then lets move on from your made up ####.



You know civilians are being killed by Israel every single week, right? It could stop, today. Only one country on Earth has the power to do that, and they choose not to. I find that killing civilians is wrong, so to me it seems infinitely fair to criticize them for it, which I will continue to do until they stop. If you don't like it, you can, as they say, get bent.

You know you’re being trolled, right?

[Fuzz]

Is Nage a troll too? Tough to see the light between a troll and a zealot.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

There are many factors here that make this a lopsided conversation however.

a) they don't believe Palestinians are guilt-free; they voted for Hamas (despite no elections being held for 17 years and more than half the current population being under 18)

b) they don't believe Palestinians are human; the lives of Palestinians are worth less than those of Israelis, by orders of magnitude

c) Sins of the father; Children are an acceptable target because they see this as an actual War, despite Hamas not being an internationally recognized government nor Palestine an internationally recognized independent country

How do you have a legitimate conversation when these are the stances held by others?

No one here has said anything remotely like that.

The thinking is that Hamas action of October 7 were a true act of war, that brought about a war that any other nation would have fought. Hamas' ongoing actions make the Palestinian death toll worse than it has to be. In fact, that increasing the Palestinian death toll seems to be Hamas' main strategy.

How do you have legitimate conversation when people refuse to acknowledge facts, and when those facts are brought up, the only response is to name call?

[Bagor]

blankall is now going to educate us with facts on the how it is Hamas that is blocking food from entering Gaza.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is Nage a troll too? Tough to see the light between a troll and a zealot.

Nobody’s stances have changed in this thread since it started. People are arguing with brick walls for no reason.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Nobody’s stances have changed in this thread since it started. People are arguing with brick walls for no reason.

I know what point you’re trying to make but that’s not true. I think Red Slinger and Beninho have both said as much for themselves. I actually think there are quite a few more than that.

But then there’s the Skeeter/Nage category that is just flat out trolling or extremely dead brained where there’s literally no point in even humouring what they are saying because anyone with half a brain is going to know it’s bull#### and the only people who actually respond are people who do it for fun. Plus the Pointman/blankall types that are just the same misinformation on repeat, which you can have a conversation with, but they’re increasingly becoming the former.

The problem at this point isn’t that nobody has changed their mind, it’s that most of the people who would have basically been given overwhelming reason to do so and already have. The people who haven’t aren’t exactly dealing with a full deck and half the time look like they can’t understand what they’re reading or are responding to a thought they had in their head. So, like, what exactly is going to “sway” someone? The whole “can’t reason you out of a position you didn’t reason yourself into” thing.

Nobody in their right mind would confused Skeeter for someone who understands what’s going on. He thought the West Bank and Gaza were the same and both controlled by Hamas and didn’t understand the most obvious joke a poster could make. As I said, not playing with a full deck.

[Fuzz]

This is a must read, and provides excellent insight on why Israel is failing, and strategies they could employ to not fail. Unfortunately it is paywalled, but if you have Firefox you can use reader mode.


https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israe...amas-ends-gaza

Simply put, despite some tactical victories, the Israeli war in Gaza has been a strategic disaster. For Israel to defeat Hamas, it needs a better strategy, one informed by a deeper understanding of how terrorist groups generally end. Fortunately, history provides ample evidence on that subject. Over the course of decades of research, I have assembled a dataset of 457 terrorist campaigns and organizations, stretching back 100 years, and have identified six primary ways in which terrorist groups end.

Ultimately, Israel’s lack of success in Gaza so far should come as no surprise: counterterrorism that is purely military rarely works and is especially difficult for a democracy to pull off. For one thing, it requires suppressing media coverage to a degree that is difficult to achieve in today’s global digital media landscape (although the Committee to Protect Journalists reports that more than 100 journalists and media workers have been killed in Gaza since the war began). Also, compared with other governments that have relied on military repression in fighting terrorists, many of which are authoritarian, Israel is somewhat more hemmed in by its own laws and policies and because it relies heavily on a patron—the United States—that criticizes the use of excessive force, opposes the commission of war crimes, and at least putatively conditions its military aid on lawful conduct.

Most importantly, the solution! the writer feels would be the best angle to pursue.

But the far more likely way that Hamas could fail is through popular backlash. Hamas rules Gaza through oppression, using arrests and torture to suppress dissent. Gazans widely loathe its internal General Security Service, which surveils and keeps files on people, stamps out protests, intimidates journalists, and tracks people accused of “immoral acts.” Since October 7, many Palestinians have expressed anger at Hamas for having misjudged the consequences of the attack—a serious targeting error that has indirectly led to the deaths of tens of thousands of Gazans. And suffering Palestinians are well aware that Hamas built an elaborate tunnel system to protect its leaders and fighters but did nothing to protect civilians.


To help Hamas fail, Israel should be doing everything in its power to give Palestinians in Gaza a sense that there is an alternative to Hamas and that a more hopeful future is possible. Instead of restricting humanitarian aid to a trickle, Israel should be providing it in massive quantities. Instead of merely destroying infrastructure and homes, Israel should also be sharing plans for rebuilding the territory in a post-Hamas future. Instead of carrying out collective punishment and hoping that Palestinians will eventually blame Hamas, Israel should be conveying that it sees a distinction between Hamas fighters and the vast majority of Gazans, who have nothing to do with the group and are themselves victims of its thuggish rule and reckless violence.


After decades of struggling with Hamas and months of fighting a massive, brutal war against it, Israel still seems unlikely to defeat the group. But it can still win—by helping Hamas defeat itself.

This seems far more likely to succeed than creating future generations of Israel hating terrorists. Which is what they are doing superbly right now. Any thoughts from others on the 5 other strategies he discusses? I think his conclusions are correct on most of them in that they wouldn't succeed.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by blankall

No one here has said anything remotely like that.

The thinking is that Hamas action of October 7 were a true act of war, that brought about a war that any other nation would have fought. Hamas' ongoing actions make the Palestinian death toll worse than it has to be. In fact, that increasing the Palestinian death toll seems to be Hamas' main strategy.

How do you have legitimate conversation when people refuse to acknowledge facts, and when those facts are brought up, the only response is to name call?

Don't think you understand what facts mean. What you posted isn't a fact, it's your opinion.

[Skootenbeeten]

So it was an aljazeera journalist who had the hostages in his home? That's wild, weren't some of pro Hamas supporters here claiming aljazeera wasn't biased? xD

[Azure]

This thread is rather fascinating because it literally represents the reason why the conflict will never end, and most if not all posters here don't even live in the legion, and there might only be a few people here with direct ties to the region.

I agree that the Israeli strategy is likely not a winning one, and I say that because scorched earth really never helped in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, and for every 'terrorist killed' 5 more were made.

But a lot of people here, especially the anti-Israel crowd are extremely disingenuous in how they view the conflict, and make zero attempt to understand the complexity of a situation where Hamas has intentionally doing all the things it does well, including hiding hostages among civilian areas or in civilian homes, launching attacks from civilian areas, etc, etc in order to get Israel to attack those areas, inflict civilian casualties (which they then completely overstate), and then use the media, the UN and other worthless organizations (90% of post secondary students) to rile up anger against Israel.

So now we have Hamas supporters marching in the streets of Toronto and Washington DC literally calling for Joe Biden's head to be put on a stick, and somehow Israel is the biggest problem in the room.

Literally fascinating.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

So it was an aljazeera journalist who had the hostages in his home? That's wild, weren't some of pro Hamas supporters here claiming aljazeera wasn't biased? xD

which identified him as an employee of the Hamas-affiliated news agency Palestine Now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/10/w...ges-hamas.html


Try to keep up, you are repeating IDF propaganda.

However, the Israeli military appeared to be stepping back on Monday from its post a day earlier on the X platform, formerly Twitter, that implied that Mr. Aljamal was a journalist for Al Jazeera, an influential news organization based in Qatar.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

This thread is rather fascinating because it literally represents the reason why the conflict will never end, and most if not all posters here don't even live in the legion, and there might only be a few people here with direct ties to the region.

I agree that the Israeli strategy is likely not a winning one, and I say that because scorched earth really never helped in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, and for every 'terrorist killed' 5 more were made.

But a lot of people here, especially the anti-Israel crowd are extremely disingenuous in how they view the conflict, and make zero attempt to understand the complexity of a situation where Hamas has intentionally doing all the things it does well, including hiding hostages among civilian areas or in civilian homes, launching attacks from civilian areas, etc, etc in order to get Israel to attack those areas, inflict civilian casualties (which they then completely overstate), and then use the media, the UN and other worthless organizations (90% of post secondary students) to rile up anger against Israel.

So now we have Hamas supporters marching in the streets of Toronto and Washington DC literally calling for Joe Biden's head to be put on a stick, and somehow Israel is the biggest problem in the room.

Literally fascinating.

Did you read the piece I posted?
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israe...amas-ends-gaza


What do you think of the option this expert suggests that I quoted near the end of my post? Namely, not bombing the #### out of them and making more terrorists?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

So it was an aljazeera journalist who had the hostages in his home? That's wild, weren't some of pro Hamas supporters here claiming aljazeera wasn't biased? xD

Israel alleges journalist held hostages in Gaza, without providing evidence

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ce/ar-BB1nVDSV

The IDF statement claimed Aljamal was a Hamas operative and a journalist for Al Jazeera.

...
Aljamal never worked for the network but had once contributed to an opinion piece published on its website, Al Jazeera said.

Al Jazeera’s website credits Aljamal as the author of an op-ed published in 2019. His biography page on the site describes him as a “Gaza-based reporter and photojournalist.”

Aljamal was a freelance contributor to The Palestine Chronicle, according to the US-based online outlet.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

So it was an aljazeera journalist who had the hostages in his home? That's wild, weren't some of pro Hamas supporters here claiming aljazeera wasn't biased? xD

Do you have a source? I never heard this.

[Looch City]

Well I actually heard from very reputable sources that the guy say on the Supreme Council for Al Jazeera.

[Skootenbeeten]

pepsi talking about brain dead when he was raving about "both sides" on oct 7th, would fit in real well at the trump clan rally. Israel is probably just his most recent fad outrage and when it dies down he will move back onto something else that tickles his fancy.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Israel alleges journalist held hostages in Gaza, without providing evidence

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ce/ar-BB1nVDSV

Israel lying???? Shocking I tell you, shocking.

Maybe the posters who continue to spew lies here are learning it from Netanyahu and Israel.