2024 Off-season trade rumours and speculation thread

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

You are not wrong. I have never seen a more negative fan base in pro sports. I swear to Christ 3/4 of this board wants the team to fail miserably at everything they do for all eternity.

No, 3/4 of this board wants the team to build a legitimate Stanley cup contender so we can see some real success in our lifetimes. We're willing to put up with a few years of pain to see that.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

How young does a player have to be to be part of the solution?

Necas is young enough where a 7-8 year term wouldn't be that painful.
But perhaps he's too old to be at his peak when the Flames would be contending.

I think part of building a contender is ensuring that you are efficiently managing your cap.

Necas on an 8 year deal is likely not crippling, but you are also paying out his UFA years with a contract like that. Is this a contract you want on the books when the young stars you draft in the 2024/2025/2026 drafts are exiting their ELCs? Will it potentially hinder your ability to re-sign them long term?

It ultimately just leads me to ask why Necas is a target to begin with.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Wanting a rebuild and keeping our picks is not negative, I am not sure who anyone would think that.

1-2, or 5 years, it doesn't matter, trading for players like a Necas does not help our rebuild.

We need stars, we need a #1C and #1D. The best way to get that is picking high in the draft, being stuck in that 10-14 range won't help us.

Necas is a move you make when your core is built. It's like when Florida brought in Reinhart.

That's where we disagree. If we traded Rasmus and Mangiapane for Orlov and Necas and then flipped Orlov for picks with salary retained, are you saying with this roster we are a 90-point team? Pretty sure we were San Jose and Chicago bad after losing Tanev and Hanifin.

We can get elite players in the next 2 draft and trade for Necas if the return to Carolina is similar to what I'm suggesting.

I said, of course if Rasmus was on the table for a top 15 pick this draft go that direction first. But if not, trading 2 28-year-olds for a 25-year-old and resigning him is still a good option. I also suggested we get Carolina 1st in 24 in the trade. That is adding futures and then we likely get a 2nd or more for Orlov 50% retained.

I personally believe that our team is very bad this year and if Rasmus loses PP time to Weegar and maybe a Porier as well his value could go down. What will people be saying when we are bottom 5 in the league, Rasmus is having a bad year and is a -35 and on pace for 30 points...what will his value be then? If we can't get the top 15 pick this draft, I like this option move forward. We get younger and add picks. But Coronato might get 4th line duties from game to game so we better not make the deal?

[dammage79]

The disconnect between the Flames Organization and it's fanbase has a lot to do things.

Some fans want a scorched earth rebuild. Where the Flames organization will not or can not entertain the idea . I don't think they can because a larger portion of their CLIENT base won't infuse their money and sell seats during a scorched earth rebuild. Note how I used the word Client in lieu of Fan. There's a divide between fans like us at CP who can see through the weeds and know the on ice product needs a total wipe and STH investors who have real money tied into this thing.

Hell, even on CP you can read STH holders talk about not re investing their money for next season based on that very notion.

No, I think collectively the hard core fan needs to understand and align their thought processing closer to the center of the organizations outlook.

Or at least acknowledge that they clearly have boundaries in which they need to operate within.

It wouldn't shock me if Conroy and company understand scorched earth would be useful and they could do it, I don't think it's in their M.O. to do so because the investing clients and the casual fan won't stick around if they did. Which is a significantly larger portion of the fanbase than us hard core fans.

Long story short, The organization cannot afford to go scorched earth and they're going to ice rosters every year that are as competitive as they can get them. Maximum effort every season.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

That's where we disagree. If we traded Rasmus and Mangiapane for Orlov and Necas and then flipped Orlov for picks with salary retained, are you saying with this roster we are a 90-point team? Pretty sure we were San Jose and Chicago bad after losing Tanev and Hanifin.

We can get elite players in the next 2 draft and trade for Necas if the return to Carolina is similar to what I'm suggesting.

I said, of course if Rasmus was on the table for a top 15 pick this draft go that direction first. But if not, trading 2 28-year-olds for a 25-year-old and resigning him is still a good option. I also suggested we get Carolina 1st in 24 in the trade. That is adding futures and then we likely get a 2nd or more for Orlov 50% retained.

I personally believe that our team is very bad this year and if Rasmus loses PP time to Weegar and maybe a Porier as well his value could go down. What will people be saying when we are bottom 5 in the league, Rasmus is having a bad year and is a -35 and on pace for 30 points...what will his value be then? If we can't get the top 15 pick this draft, I like this option move forward. We get younger and add picks. But Coronato might get 4th line duties from game to game so we better not make the deal?

A lateral move for roster players is fine, like a Markstrom or Mangiapane.

Adding a draft pick(s) is my issue. We need to be getting picks.

I don't think Mangiapane gets the deal done either.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by dammage79

The disconnect between the Flames Organization and it's fanbase has a lot to do things.

Some fans want a scorched earth rebuild. Where the Flames organization will not or can not entertain the idea . I don't think they can because a larger portion of their CLIENT base won't infuse their money and sell seats during a scorched earth rebuild. Note how I used the word Client in lieu of Fan. There's a divide between fans like us at CP who can see through the weeds and know the on ice product needs a total wipe and STH investors who have real money tied into this thing.

Hell, even on CP you can read STH holders talk about not re investing their money for next season based on that very notion.

No, I think collectively the hard core fan needs to understand and align their thought processing closer to the center of the organizations outlook.

Or at least acknowledge that they clearly have boundaries in which they need to operate within.

It wouldn't shock me if Conroy and company understand scorched earth would be useful and they could do it, I don't think it's in their M.O. to do so because the investing clients and the casual fan won't stick around if they did. Which is a significantly larger portion of the fanbase than us hard core fans.

Long story short, The organization cannot afford to go scorched earth and they're going to ice rosters every year that are as competitive as they can get them. Maximum effort every season.

I don’t disagree with this general sentiment but I think the corporate seats get sold either way. At the most you may be talking about 1000 tickets a game since the majority of seats are sold to individuals who buy them for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with the product on the ice. That would be about 125K CDN a game. Take that over an entire season and you may be talking about 5 million USD in revenue from tickets at least. Between league revenue sharing and just spending 5 or 6 million below the cap one has to think financially the Flames could make a rebuild work.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I don’t disagree with this general sentiment but I think the corporate seats get sold either way. At the most you may be talking about 1000 tickets a game since the majority of seats are sold to individuals who buy them for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with the product on the ice. That would be about 125K CDN a game. Take that over an entire season and you may be talking about 5 million USD in revenue from tickets at least. Between league revenue sharing and just spending 5 or 6 million below the cap one has to think financially the Flames could make a rebuild work.

Corporate seat will always be sold but I do question about what they'd pay to keep those seats. I suspect in a scorched earth rebuild those seats would be discounted heavily just to keep them filled.

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

You are not wrong. I have never seen a more negative fan base in pro sports. I swear to Christ 3/4 of this board wants the team to fail miserably at everything they do for all eternity.

No, that isn't why so many of us are negative at all.

We have zero faith in the ownership group to do the right thing (rebuild). And we know that any GM we get is handcuffed by Murray Edwards and whoever else from up top.

Hell, many posters are on were posting that the offer was a 1st + Holtz + for Markstrom and ownership apparently axed the deal because they wanted another miracle playoff run. Now Markstrom is worth significantly less with so many goalies about to be on the market.

Just another example of the short term thinking that plagues our organization. If you get that kind of offer for a goalie who was worth nothing months prior, you take it and run.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

A lateral move for roster players is fine, like a Markstrom or Mangiapane.

Adding a draft pick(s) is my issue. We need to be getting picks.

I don't think Mangiapane gets the deal done either.

lol pretty sure my idea has us getting picks. I agree we shouldn’t give up picks but Mangiapane is not enough to get this deal. Maybe we should walk away and keep Rasmus but I bet Rasmus by mid next season will not have the same value he has now. We are a bad team. You suggest we will pick 10 to 14. Basically 90 or close to 90 point team. Imo that’s a bold statement with this roster even with Necas

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Corporate seat will always be sold but I do question about what they'd pay to keep those seats. I suspect in a scorched earth rebuild those seats would be discounted heavily just to keep them filled.

The seats will need to be discounted either way. An old middling team isn’t an attractive seller either. It has been very hard to give tickets away over the last two seasons. The casual fan wants to go watch fun hockey and will get engaged in a playoff run. I think they lose more season ticket holders in the long term if they don’t actually build a core worth watching.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Corporate seat will always be sold but I do question about what they'd pay to keep those seats. I suspect in a scorched earth rebuild those seats would be discounted heavily just to keep them filled.

What are they really afraid of? Have they not seen attendance and trend the last 2 seasons

https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attenda...h.php?tmi=5090

The Flames attendance the last two seasons were 17950 in 2022 and 17500 last season

That was the lowest since 03/04 - 20 Years

The worst attendance in history was 1999 and 15300
- The city of Calgary had a population of 925,000 vs 1.65 million today

So even if we dropped to our worse attendance ever we are talking ~2000 seats unsold a game (I would assume with a population up 80% they would have some demand increase but price increase over that time may kill/lower increased population demand)

42 home games X 2000 tickets is 8400 less tickets sold

The Flames average cost to attende a game was $127 Canadian

https://globalnews.ca/news/9179433/n...8%20per%20game.

So that's about 10.5 million in revenue impact if the Flames dropped to the lowest attendance in franchise history

(Not including any impact offset/already will occur as they are already seeing lowered demand - Attendance dropped 500/game from 22-23. )

Would anyone care if they spent 11$ million under the cap and went full rebuild?

What they should do is lower prices 20%, spend 20 million under the cap to cover the difference in revenue and do a full rebuild. Build up a new fanbase watching exciting rookies while the team stinks and drafts top 3 for 3 year, then start spending and raising ticket prices in the new arena with a team people want and are excited to watch (IE - CREATE SOME DEMAND)

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

I'm not seeing that. I see lots of posters who think rebuild is the only solution and will not see anything good about this team until they get that full tank for 5 years. But they all believe that it's needed for this team to finally be a cup contender. I don't see it as negative.

I want the full rebuild and with the recent teams winning, it's looking more and more like it is needed with the roster we have. But I do think a 5-year tank is maybe not needed. 1 to 2 years and maybe we get the job done.

Also don't think we have to trade everyone to get a top 3 pick.

Some disagree but most just want a cup and state their opinion as the way to get there.

When we won the Pacific 3 years ago this place had half the activity it does now, many of the doomsday posters were missing in action the majority of the year, at least until the Oilers beat us. Then they magically made a return. There is no doubt in my mind there is a good portion of the fan base here that is only happy when things are going bad.

[traptor]

You can say it's a business decision not to rebuild but i bet the Flames are hemorrhaging future fans right now.

Calgary was already the weaker player in the market.
How many albertan/saskatchewan/hockey kids are asking for a flames jersey over an oilers jersey this Christmas?

The flames are irrelevant and apathetic right now. We're not even an interesting bottom feeder team since we have no top end prospects.

Trading for Necas and pushing for playoffs next season is just going to make things worse.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

When we won the Pacific 3 years ago this place had half the activity it does now, many of the doomsday posters were missing in action the majority of the year, at least until the Oilers beat us. Then they magically made a return. There is no doubt in my mind there is a good portion of the fan base here that is only happy when things are going bad.

Most of the negative fans have just wanted a true rebuild since the Iginla era though...as they believe that's how you build a winner.

And as much I think there are other ways to build winning teams...doing a scorched earth rebuild with lots of early picks seems to be the most effective way.

And the thing is even if you fail like the Oilers V1 and Sabres V1 rebuilds, if you suck long enough eventually you fall backwards into enough talent to have a strong base to build upon.

Its the teams that try to stay relevant that tend to just get stuck in mediocrity forever.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

lol pretty sure my idea has us getting picks. I agree we shouldn’t give up picks but Mangiapane is not enough to get this deal. Maybe we should walk away and keep Rasmus but I bet Rasmus by mid next season will not have the same value he has now. We are a bad team. You suggest we will pick 10 to 14. Basically 90 or close to 90 point team. Imo that’s a bold statement with this roster even with Necas

I just don’t see Andersson or Mangiapane getting anything done.

We should be targeting picks for these guys not roster players.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Most of the negative fans have just wanted a true rebuild since the Iginla era though...as they believe that's how you build a winner.

And as much I think there are other ways to build winning teams...doing a scorched earth rebuild with lots of early picks seems to be the most effective way.

And the thing is even if you fail like the Oilers V1 and Sabres V1 rebuilds, if you suck long enough eventually you fall backwards into enough talent to have a strong base to build upon.

Its the teams that try to stay relevant that tend to just get stuck in mediocrity forever.

I’d even jump in here to be argumentative and say that it is how you build a winner and it’s not really a point of debate any longer.

When you go look at the salary cap era, it’s very clear. The Oilers are a very good example of the fact that you can be almost entirely incompetent and still have it come together better than the Flames’ “strategy”.

I also agree with traptor - the Flames need star players, and Necas ain’t that. He’s a fine player who would contribute to the Flames inability to draft from the positions they need.

If the Flames had two to three top-5 draft picks already in the system, I’d be somewhat on board with a Necas trade - but the timing is wrong right now. I generally feel that we should avoid trades like this though regardless of whatever stage the team is in - I’d much sooner see them just take the patient approach and draft and develop.

The Flames need to draft and develop their own stars. It’s step 1.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

When we won the Pacific 3 years ago this place had half the activity it does now, many of the doomsday posters were missing in action the majority of the year, at least until the Oilers beat us. Then they magically made a return. There is no doubt in my mind there is a good portion of the fan base here that is only happy when things are going bad.

Not how I see it. We got pounded by Avs and oilers where their top players were unstoppable. Some of us want those type of players

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Not how I see it. We got pounded by Avs and oilers where their top players were unstoppable. Some of us want those type of players

Those type of players win Championships.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Those type of players win Championships.

Mackinnon, Makar, Eichel, Kucherov and Crosby anyways.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

When we won the Pacific 3 years ago this place had half the activity it does now, many of the doomsday posters were missing in action the majority of the year, at least until the Oilers beat us. Then they magically made a return. There is no doubt in my mind there is a good portion of the fan base here that is only happy when things are going bad.

You still haven’t said what makes wanting a rebuild negative ?

It sure feels like you want the team to start trading away what little prospects we have and picks and try to make 8th place.

We are not a draft or a player away. We are multiple drafts and many players away from being a competitive team again.

It’s the furthest thing from being negative.