[PGT] Flames 6 Arizona 5 - whine about the tank here

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I don't know who's disagreeing that you can't lose every game.

My complaint has been that nothing was changed/altered at all in our game plans, after we were eliminated. Any call ups we made were strictly injury related, and we went with our full pre-eliminated roster (again, except for injuries) and icetime for every post-eliminated game.

It's not so much that we didn't "try to lose" it's that we treated these games exactly the same way we treated them when were still trying to make the playoffs. We COULD have done different things that, just by nature, may have resulted in losing more games than we did (or it could have gone the other way)... but we DIDN'T.

We were eliminated on the 4th, with 7 games left. Between then and now, just becuase of the results of all the other games that were played (not involving the Flames), our first round pick could have been as high as 5th overall. We've played 5 games since then, going 3 and 2 for 6 points... and because of that, the highest we can now draft is 8th overall (but only with help from Seattle), and we can still slip down to 10th (with zero help from anyone).

That's why I (and I assume others) are once again pissed. We didn't do a single thing different after we were eliminated. Same lineups, same icetimes, same old refusal to treat these games any different than any other games.

That's the point. There were lots of very realistic things we could have tried. We could have sat one or two vets for each game (alternating, of course) and tried out someone like Poirier (or literally anyone else from the Wranglers). We could have given the kids more icetime than (at least some of) the vets. We could have started Wolf more than we did (he only started 2 of the 5 post-elimination games).

It's not that we didn't lose more, and nobody's telling anyone not to score goals. It's just that we did literally NOTHING that wasn't forced by injuries for ONLY the last 5 games after we were eliminated. Maybe we would have lost more... maybe we would have won more... we'll never know, though, because this organization never. f***king. changes.

I don't know any other way to explain it than this. If people still think I'm "whining because whatever..." than they're just never going to understand (or they're just incapable of seeing beyond their own point of view).

You obviously haven't been paying attention...the Flames have also maxed out the call up limit


After the deadline until the end of the regular season, NHL teams are only permitted four regular player recalls

[GioforPM]

Elimination date is too recent - they've been losing steadily since long before that.

Since the TDL, Wolf has 10 starts, Markstrom has 7. Now, he was hurt for some, but absent that they'd be about even.

Call up young guys? There are injury callups but I'd bet that if they were trying to win, some of those injured players (like Coleman) would be playing. The Flames are now at 27 on the roster, so 4 more than the regular minimum. Plus, I think Klapka was the last non emergency callup allowed. The Wranglers are still playing too.

[Lumby Lager]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Also... for those maybe not understanding the full depth of frustration from long-term fans...

Since the Flames came to Calgary in 1980, they've won 18 out of a possible 180 playoff rounds. 18. That's it. At the begining of every season, the Flames have had a chance to win 4 playoff rounds in that season, for a total of 180 possible playoff rounds. We've won 18 of them.

Also... since the Flames came to Calgary in 1980, here's the number of times they've drafted in the top 5 of the first round:

1983: Dan Quinn, selected 3rd overall.
2014: Sam Bennett, selected 4th overall.

I guess I was just thinking we could maybe try drafting in the top 5 again, just see if doing something different would lead to a different result in trying to win... cause, you know, what we've been doing hasn't been working.

Dan Quinn was 13 overall

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lumby Lager

Dan Quinn was 13 overall

Yup. Sam Bennett is the only top 5 pick. 7 more in the top 10 (either 6 or 9).


That said, top 5 was impossible this year. I can't think how they could have done it.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by Lumby Lager

Dan Quinn was 13 overall

The Flames have indeed drafted top 5 once, but they have drafted 6th overall 5 times:


Tkachuk
Monahan
Tkaczuk
Fata
Stillman

[Ped]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That said, top 5 was impossible this year. I can't think how they could have done it.

Actually if they had sold off earlier (not saying they should have, just if they had) they could have had a good chance to be 5th worst. Currently that is Montreal, only 4 points back.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They have been the 29th ranked team since the trade deadline.

They are doing exactly what you want them to do.

I'm not talking about since the trade deadline. We should have been trying to win games at that point, because we still had a chance to make the playoffs.

I'm literally (currently and have been) only talking about what we've done since actually being eliminated. That's all I've ever been talking about.

These last 5 games and the 2 games left... these are the games we could have changed something up for, but we've treated them just like we're still trying to clinch a playoff spot. Vet-heavy lineups and icetimes. Only injury-related roster changes.

We're 3 and 2 since we've been eliminated, and we've made zero game plan changes (even though we're out of the playoffs) for those 5 games (and I imagne also zero changes for the 2 games left).

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Ped

Actually if they had sold off earlier (not saying they should have, just if they had) they could have had a good chance to be 5th worst. Currently that is Montreal, only 4 points back.

maybe, Flames were one game under .500 when they sold Zadorov

they are wait for it.....
one game under .500

And the deals they got were likely better later not to mention cap complications for acquiring teams. Its pretty hard to realistically blame the Flames for winning 3 games against historically bad teams. How dare they!

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm not talking about since the trade deadline. We should have been trying to win games at that point, because we still had a chance to make the playoffs.

I'm literally (currently and have been) only talking about what we've done since actually being eliminated. That's all I've ever been talking about.

These last 5 games and the 2 games left... these are the games we could have changed something up for, but we've treated them just like we're still trying to clinch a playoff spot. Vet-heavy lineups and icetimes. Only injury-related roster changes.

We're 3 and 2 since we've been eliminated, and we've made zero game plan changes (even though we're out of the playoffs) for those 5 games (and I imagne also zero changes for the 2 games left).

Reading might help you not being so mad...THE FLAMES HAVE MAXED OUT THE RECALL LIMITS. Per the CBA they are NOT allowed to call up any more Wranglers.

You can also imagine Klapka playing in in the next two games because he is lol

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That said, top 5 was impossible this year. I can't think how they could have done it.

We've gained 6 points since we've been eliminated. We were at 73 at that point, and we're at 79 now. Take those 6 points away, and we're still at 73 -- putting us below MTL and in possession of the 5th overall pick.

Is it a realistic expectaion that we lose all 7 of our post-eilimnation games? No, it isn't... but we COULD have (we could have won more too). We'll never know, because we didn't bother even treating these games any different than the ones we played before we were eliminated.

But anyway, yes top 5 was possible.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

The only ones irrationally losing their minds are the ones who can't handle the fact that other posters had a preference for Arizona winning and made it public in the PGT. That's it. That's the jist of it.

Says someone whose user location is ‘Hyperbole Chamber’.

Seems to me that everyone who is not bothered by these two wins has been entirely calm and is looking at the bigger picture.

Then, on the other side, you have people who claim the team has completely given up on the rebuild and will be mediocre forever because of two wins.

[All In Good Time]

Why are we icing a roster in the first place? (since we were eliminated or since the trade deadline.....or since the end of the exhibition schedule....)

[Winsor_Pilates]

I'm usually with team tank, but Conroy did exactly what was needed with the exception of trading Markstrom. Even there, he likely only didn't because the trade value wasn't right.

The team has been terrible since the trade deadline, playing Wolf most nights and losing a lot.
A couple months ago we all wanted a top 10 pick. Now we're there and people are complaining it's not top 6?
There's only so much one can expect.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Reading might help you not being so mad...THE FLAMES HAVE MAXED OUT THE RECALL LIMITS. Per the CBA they are NOT allowed to call up any more Wranglers.

You can also imagine Klapka playing in in the next two games because he is lol

Interesting comment about my reading.

I've said multiple times that the only changes they made were the ones they were forced to becuase of injuries. (they could have used all their recalls right away and played them too - we wouldn't have needed to use them for injuries if we did that, because they'd already be up here and playing).

I also said multiple times that we didn't even change icetimes. We could have switched things up in that regard. Played the bottom 3 D more than the top 3 D. See what happens. Played Zary, Coronato, Pospisil, Pelletier as if they were the vets on the team, playing them 20 mins a night. See what happens. Could have started Wolf for all the games (even the back to back). See what happens.

I would have loved to see that. These are/were meaningless games. Losing them benefits us MUCH more than winning them does, so it's the perfect time to take some players out for a spin. What happens to Zary when you give him 25 mins a night? Who knows! We could have known, but we don't know becuase we didn't do it.

Etc etc etc etc.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

We've gained 6 points since we've been eliminated. We were at 73 at that point, and we're at 79 now. Take those 6 points away, and we're still at 73 -- putting us below MTL and in possession of the 5th overall pick.

Is it a realistic expectaion that we lose all 7 of our post-eilimnation games? No, it isn't... but we COULD have (we could have won more too). We'll never know, because we didn't bother even treating these games any different than the ones we played before we were eliminated.

But anyway, yes top 5 was possible.

Maxed out recalls
Wolf Started the majority of games

You keep mentioning Montreal, what are they doing differently exactly? I bet you the Flames have used more players this season than they have

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Maxed out recalls
Wolf Started the majority of games

You keep mentioning Montreal, what are they doing differently exactly? I bet you the Flames have used more players this season than they have

They have indeed. A quick check on Hockey-reference.com makes it 38 to 34.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Interesting comment about my reading.

I've said multiple times that the only changes they made were the ones they were forced to becuase of injuries. (they could have used all their recalls right away and played them too - we wouldn't have needed to use them for injuries if we did that, because they'd already be up here and playing).

I also said multiple times that we didn't even change icetimes. We could have switched things up in that regard. Played the bottom 3 D more than the top 3 D. See what happens. Played Zary, Coronato, Pospisil, Pelletier as if they were the vets on the team, playing them 20 mins a night. See what happens. Could have started Wolf for all the games (even the back to back). See what happens.

I would have loved to see that. These are meaning less games. Losing them benefits us MUCH more than winning them does, so it's the perfect time to take some players out for a spin. What happens to Zary when you give him 25 mins a night? Who knows! We could have known, but we don't know becuase we didn't do it.

Etc etc etc etc.

Injuries don't count against recalls
The Flames have used all their non emergency recalls so that is a dumb argument. You will be hard pressed to find another team who's current roster has played both in the NHL and AHL this season.

Start Wolf every game, even back to backs...like now you are just being silly. Whats next? they should have spiked the water bottles lol. Called Tonya Harding to take out Kuzmenko? Hoping your team loses is one thing but you are being ridiculous because you didn't know about roster limits but won't back off your stance at all. All the teams below Calgary are icing lineups and playing hard. This is the ####ing NHL not your videogame. Montreal got a point last night and damn near ended the Wings season.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Elimination date is too recent - they've been losing steadily since long before that.

Since the TDL, Wolf has 10 starts, Markstrom has 7. Now, he was hurt for some, but absent that they'd be about even.

Call up young guys? There are injury callups but I'd bet that if they were trying to win, some of those injured players (like Coleman) would be playing. The Flames are now at 27 on the roster, so 4 more than the regular minimum. Plus, I think Klapka was the last non emergency callup allowed. The Wranglers are still playing too.

Again... nothing I've said has anything at all to do with the TDL.

Like... think of it it like this...

In this current Flames regular season, there have been two types of games... games we wanted to win because we had not yet been eliminated from playoff contention (these games we wanted our best linups and icetimes!)... and the other type are the games where winning or losing was 100% irrelevant because it was no longer possible to make the playoffs (these games we wanted to experiment with and try all kinds of neat things in becuase, in fact, losing these games would have been a huge benefit).

That's it. My last time trying to explain that I only care about what we did for the games after April 4th, when we were officially eliminated.

If people aren't getting it, then I guess people just aren't getting it.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Says someone whose user location is ‘Hyperbole Chamber’.

Seems to me that everyone who is not bothered by these two wins has been entirely calm and is looking at the bigger picture.

Then, on the other side, you have people who claim the team has completely given up on the rebuild and will be mediocre forever because of two wins.

This place sure is a hyperbole chamber and this thread is certainly exemplifying it.

Those two wins have done less good for the bigger picture than two losses would have. That’s just a true fact and you can try all you want to put bows on “players going into the summer on a winning streak high” and “marginal affects on the draft”, but it just doesn’t make a case. Some of us see a clear distinction between the 11th pick and the 7th, in lottery odds, players available, and success rates.

All the garish attempts at trying to explicitly link what the team and players do to a fans preference for a loss over a win have been humourous.

You’ll all be rolling into the draft threads making comments pre and post draft about how your guy you wanted was missed out on. It happens every year. Had we just lost that game in Boston mid season instead of coming back to win we would have been able to draft Catton, but now he’s gone to Seattle and we could have had that pick if it wasn’t for a meaningless win in a season where we finished 23rd.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Maxed out recalls
Wolf Started the majority of games

You keep mentioning Montreal, what are they doing differently exactly? I bet you the Flames have used more players this season than they have

Dude what are you even talking about.

Wolf started 2 of the 5 games.
I mentioned Montreal once.