2024 Off-season trade rumours and speculation thread

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Who was the top six forward? I have never read a credible scenario where there was both a top six forward and a high draft pick in the same trade.

It's funny because, not only do we not know, but the poster you quoted was pretty adamant that such a return was unlikely.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It also would have been the most consequential trade with potential to add a top six forward and a high draft pick. Why wouldn't people want to understand exactly why the team elected to not make a deal that would have really helped the retool/rebuild?

No reason why they wouldn't want to understand it.

That doesn't mean that they do.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Of course people want to understand why the trade never happened. But speculating, and buying into rumours, (especially when there was motivation to plant rumours), does not get anyone any closer to understanding, and may even be counter-productive - especially when it is human nature to assume the worst.

Exactly this.

I have no issue with an actual fact on the matter. But we really don't have any of those.

So jumping to the worst possible case and calling everyone homers for not agreeing with your "view" is where I push back.

If the Flames have a meddling owner it's a problem.
If the Flames management group decided the return would be better in the summer ... it isn't.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Who was the top six forward? I have never read a credible scenario where there was both a top six forward and a high draft pick in the same trade.

Supposedly Holtz was available. Guy could be a top six player on our roster IMO. Pick was supposedly a second. The team should have taken that and run.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It's funny because, not only do we not know, but the poster you quoted was pretty adamant that such a return was unlikely.

Never said that for Markstrom. Said that for the UFAs and was proven right in spades. Markstrom has term and is a hockey trade. Context lost on you as usual.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Supposedly Holtz was available. Guy could be a top six player on our roster IMO. Pick was supposedly a second. The team should have taken that and run.



Never said that for Markstrom. Said that for the UFAs and was proven right in spades. Markstrom has term and is a hockey trade. Context lost on you as usual.

If Holtz is top 6 on Calgary it’s in 6th place. In reality he’s probably behind 8 forwards here at least. And hopefully going forward there are a lot of better options for top 6 than Holtz.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Supposedly Holtz was available. Guy could be a top six player on our roster IMO.

Which of Huberdeau, Mangiapane, Coleman, and Zary would he knock out of the top 6?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Trusting your scouts also means doing so when they don’t like a player
If Holtz was the biggest piece in the deal and conroys scouts didn’t like him…that’s not much of a deal

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Of course people want to understand why the trade never happened. But speculating, and buying into rumours,

Originally Posted by Bingo

Exactly this.

Rumours are fun though, right?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Never said that for Markstrom. Said that for the UFAs and was proven right in spades. Markstrom has term and is a hockey trade. Context lost on you as usual.

LOL

You were the furthest off, on the Lindholm trade, of anyone (but still claimed to be right)

You called Miromanov a throw-in on the Hanifin trade, Grushnikov a throw-in on the Tanev trade, just as you called Kuzmenko a cap dump. But claiming you were 'proven right in spades' is right on brand - I'll give you that.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Rumours are fun though, right?

Rumours are very fun. They just shouldn't be confused with facts.

[FlamesAddiction]

The thing with Holtz is that he just turned 22 years old. If he was on the Flames, he would be the youngest player currently on the team not named Matt Coronato, although they are born in the same calendar year. It wouldn't be a trade for the the present, but for the future.

[Zary's-Mustache]

What about a Markstrom to Minnesota trade? I think he'd be a good fit there as I think Minnesota is in a 4 or 5 year window to win.

He'd be a upgrade on what they currently have and they have the assets needed and some pieces Flames would want.

Gustavsson is young and having Markstrom will be a good push safety blanket for him I think. He had a great year last season but has really struggled this year.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Several insiders reported that Conroy had a deal he liked but it was nixed by someone higher up over retention. We don’t know to what extent that means the money itself or the compensation for retention. I suspect it was both at work - Edwards/Bean don’t like paying millions to people who aren’t working for them, and so Maloney pushed Conroy to ask for more in compensation.

There were also multiple reports that a week to 10 days later the Devils came back with a revised offer that didn’t include salary retention. The reason the Flames turned this down is murkier. It could have been that the revised deal didn’t offer enough hockey value. But we do have reports from Freidman that this second deal was nixed by ownership out of hopes of making the playoffs.

The fact the Flames dealt Hanifin after that date does not invalidate this conjecture. Hanifin was a pending UFA. And the Flames made multiple pitches to re-sign him. They only dealt Hanifin once they had no choice. That’s not the case at all with Markstrom. He’s not a ‘deal him or lose him for nothing’ asset like Hanifin was.

This is all speculative enough that people can believe what they want. Personally, given the track record of this franchise, I have an easier time believing ownership pulled the plug on a deal that Conroy liked than I have believing that several NHL insiders were all manipulated into carrying water for the Devils.

Obviously it's all speculation, but something along these lines makes most sense to me based on what we know. The higher ups either didn't like the dollar amount in retention or didn't like the value of the package based on what was being retained. This is what killed the deal when it was close. This is what angered Jersey and made them walk away. This is what annoyed Markstrom because he thought the deal was basically done. This is why Jersey came back and said we're taking the retention off the deal because it was likely the sticking point originally.

Any other theory doesn't make sense. I can't see a deal getting close and Conroy just changing his mind and demanding more. I can't see Markstrom going out of his way to call out management if he never thought the deal was close or he was mad info got leaked when that happens all the time in sports. I don't see Jersey coming back and saying no retention is needed now if that wasn't a sticking point to begin with.

Whats more likely? That the Flames higher ups got involved when they have a reputation of doing so or every insider is just some pawn of the Devils who are spreading all these false rumors in the media on their behalf?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Obviously it's all speculation, but something along these lines makes most sense to me based on what we know. The higher ups either didn't like the dollar amount in retention or didn't like the value of the package based on what was being retained. This is what killed the deal when it was close. This is what angered Jersey and made them walk away. This is what annoyed Markstrom because he thought the deal was basically done. This is why Jersey came back and said we're taking the retention off the deal because it was likely the sticking point originally.

Any other theory doesn't make sense. I can't see a deal getting close and Conroy just changing his mind and demanding more. I can't see Markstrom going out of his way to call out management if he never thought the deal was close or he was mad info got leaked when that happens all the time in sports. I don't see Jersey coming back and saying no retention is needed now if that wasn't a sticking point to begin with.

Whats more likely? That the Flames higher ups got involved when they have a reputation of doing so or every insider is just some pawn of the Devils who are spreading all these false rumors in the media on their behalf?

So if that was the sticking point why didn't the deal eventually get done after the retention was taken away? At that point the Flames were well off the pace. It doesn't add up.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Rumours are fun though, right?

I love rumors! Facts can be so misleading, but rumors, true or false, are often revealing

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

What about a Markstrom to Minnesota trade? I think he'd be a good fit there as I think Minnesota is in a 4 or 5 year window to win.

He'd be a upgrade on what they currently have and they have the assets needed and some pieces Flames would want.

Gustavsson is young and having Markstrom will be a good push safety blanket for him I think. He had a great year last season but has really struggled this year.

Most goaltending aficionados rate Jesper Wallstedt and Askarov of the Preds as nearly interchangeable 1 & 2 goaltending prospects.

So I expect after this season the Wild will be elevating him to the NHL and won't want to bring in someone to displace Gustafsson.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Supposedly Holtz was available. Guy could be a top six player on our roster IMO. Pick was supposedly a second. The team should have taken that and run.



Never said that for Markstrom. Said that for the UFAs and was proven right in spades. Markstrom has term and is a hockey trade. Context lost on you as usual.

Holtz and a 2nd and you’re happy? I wouldn’t be, we should be able to get at least a 1st for Markstrom. He’s like vezina calibre.

See what happens at the draft and make the trade then.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Holtz and a 2nd and you’re happy? I wouldn’t be, we should be able to get at least a 1st for Markstrom. He’s like vezina calibre.

See what happens at the draft and make the trade then.

He's Vezina calibre this year, wasn't last year, might not be next year when he turns 35 and is still owed 12 million dollars over his last two seasons. Players, especially goalies can go from valuable to dump territory at that age fast. MA Fluery won the Vezina and was promptly traded for Mikael Hakkarainen who hadn't played an an NHL game and didn't (since retired due to heart condition).

Trying to predict goalie value is a fool's game. It's entirely possible Markstrom's value won't ever come close to what New Jersey was offering again

[Super-Rye]

Originally Posted by BigThief

He's Vezina calibre this year, wasn't last year, might not be next year when he turns 35 and is still owed 12 million dollars over his last two seasons. Players, especially goalies can go from valuable to dump territory at that age fast. MA Fluery won the Vezina and was promptly traded for Mikael Hakkarainen who hadn't played an an NHL game and didn't (since retired due to heart condition).

Trying to predict goalie value is a fool's game. It's entirely possible Markstrom's value won't ever come close to what New Jersey was offering again

That's possible. It's also possible I'm hit by a bus when I leave my house tomorrow morning. Or maybe I'll win a million bucks? Like, anything is possible so lets dwell on the negatives and demand desperation deals.

Even if Markstrom takes steps back next season he has value to this organization as someone who can help bring Wolf along and help him develop and help shelter him as he develops. That's worth more than a 2nd and Holtz I'd imagine.

Everyone always wants to ship everyone out for picks and prospects when it comes time to blow it up but Conroy has to be extremely mindful of how he's going to develop the next generation and how he's going to put them in a position to succeed. You can't just move all your vets for picks, slap a bunch of rando's around your young players and hope the develop into top tier NHL players. You can do that with a generational guy like Crosby, Bedard, or McDavid but even then the teams brought in older vets to show them how to be pro's and help protect these guys to a degree.

It's very possible Markstrom gets traded in the offseason. If someone offered Conroy fair value before the trade deadline, Markstrom would have been gone already and they'd be running a Wolf / Vladar tandem and personally I don't think that's a bad way to go if that's the direction this team ends up going in.

It's also entirely possible Markstrom stays and acts as a mentor to bridge Wolf into the starter role. I also think if that's the direction they go then that is a good direction too. The Flames are in a great position, they have wealth at the goaltending position. I feel like unless they trade Wolf, there's not really a bad option to take. It's just about what direction has the biggest return on investment. Conroy's done a great job so far so, even if he ends up doing something I don't understand (like trade Wolf for some reason) he gets the benefit of the doubt for now.

There's no sense in the Flames giving up their advantageous position just cause they can get a 2nd and some guy the other team GM literally called out. Some teams don't even have 1 good goalie, the Flames should be in no hurry to move one of theirs.

Even if Holtz does become a good player, the Flames already have young wingers with top 6 potential. Pelts, Coronato, Zary, Honzek (trying to convert to C but we will see), Pospisil. The team needs guys who project to be top 6 centers and top 4 defenders. Adding Holtz, even if he does turn into a good player, doesn't really do it for me here because he ends up falling down the depth chart now, and possibly falling right off it in the near future when some of the unestablished guys establish themselves.

Conroy added some depth organizationally to the D before the TDL. Miromanov, Okhotyuk, and Pachal are all stop gaps with untapped potential and Hanley is just a steady, professional 7 who is apparently great in the room. All these guys will be around for next year, allowing the younger guys to turn pro and spend time in the A, but it doesn't really block them from making the team if they earn it as all 4 of those guys are on dirt cheap deals. He also added a mixture of defensive minded guys, offensive minded guys, guys who are more physical, guys who are more stick work. It's a nice mix, you can see the thought process and how the pieces might fit together.

Conroy's going to have to do that for the Center's next.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I love rumors! Facts can be so misleading, but rumors, true or false, are often revealing

That’s a bingo!