American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

What do you think Americans use as their priorities when actually deciding who to vote for? Because I have a sneaking suspicion as stated very strongly by Cali Panthers Fan that the things you pay attention to and the things the general population of the United States does are not anywhere close to the same.

I mean, we're talking about it because Jon Stewart came back from a 12 year hiatus to say it. It resonates with a nominal segment of Americans and has spawned discourse. If even a small % of the electorate is turned off by *gestures vaguely at the last 12 months of Biden*, then it's a conversation worth having and not ignoring.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Someone's goat was got.

What do you think Americans use as their priorities when actually deciding who to vote for? Because I have a sneaking suspicion as stated very strongly by Cali Panthers Fan that the things you pay attention to and the things the general population of the United States does are not anywhere close to the same.

People like PsYcNeT can’t seem to get their head around just how unpopular their political values are at the national level in the U.S. Progressives make up fewer than 25 per cent of Democrats, let alone American voters as a whole.

The notion that Biden ‘moved the Overton window right’ is just copium for people who don’t want to acknowledge where the political centre lies in the U.S.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

People like PsYcNeT can’t seem to get their head around just how unpopular their political values are at the national level in the U.S. Progressives make up fewer than 25 per cent of Democrats, let alone American voters as a whole.

The notion that Biden ‘moved the Overton window right’ is just copium for people who don’t want to acknowledge where the political centre lies in the U.S.

It's extremely arguable that the Overton Window has shifted.

We're seeing a new rise of the Religious Right, hate crimes and bigotry are on the rise after a decline in the late 00s, abortion is outlawed in multiple states, and anti-LGBTQ rhetoric is becoming normalized on television. Again.

I'm not sure what that signals to you, but it feels like a regression.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I think it's more group polarization. I don't know if people understood the degree to which catering to the extremes works from an "eyeballs on the product" perspective, engagement etc, until social media algorithms proved it. It turns out that it's not at all a good business plan to cater to the mainstream just because there are more of them, and catering to the extremes makes people more extreme.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I think it's more group polarization. I don't know if people understood the degree to which catering to the extremes works from an "eyeballs on the product" perspective, engagement etc, until social media algorithms proved it. It turns out that it's not at all a good business plan to cater to the mainstream just because there are more of them, and catering to the extremes makes people more extreme.

Likewise, the nationalization of news-tainment has had a baleful effect on politics. As a federal state, much of the legislation that affects Americans happens at the state level. But by turning politics into a national bloodsport, Americans spend most of their time emotionally engaged with the level of politics that affects them least and that they have the least influence over.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

It's extremely arguable that the Overton Window has shifted.

We're seeing a new rise of the Religious Right, hate crimes and bigotry are on the rise after a decline in the late 00s, abortion is outlawed in multiple states, and anti-LGBTQ rhetoric is becoming normalized on television. Again.

I'm not sure what that signals to you, but it feels like a regression.

On that we can agree.

It's a problem, but you have to stop and ask yourself, which candidate made it possible to push it that way? Biden or Trump? Which candidate is morally opposed to those things? Biden or Trump?

Of all the logical fallacies, a false equivalency is by far the most egregious because it creates a pernicious logical argument that is ultimately destructive.

My problem is yelling about the quality of the waiting service when the ####ing restaurant is on fire. There are bigger fish to fry, and you have to save the republic to fight those fights another day.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Okay, but YOU are not voting, unless I somehow missed when you moved to the States, so it doesn't matter at all what YOU are looking for in an American president.

That's the thing about this thread that drives me insane. Canadians are constantly judging American candidates based on Canadian political values. Here's the thing, these guys represent what most Americans want, for better or worse. Whether that's a good thing is fine to debate, but to suggest that Americans aren't getting representatives for what they want is horse####.

The problem is that a lot of Americans seemingly want a lot of terrible things. Looking into why is probably a more important question to answer, rather than arguing that the whole system is corrupt and undemocratic. It's certainly not a perfect country or system by any stretch, but it's still a functioning democracy for now.

Here's the thing though...one current candidate would continue maintaining it as a democratic country, giving the hope for better outcomes in the future. The other would work to destroy democratic institution and elections, making it an autocracy, where he would be president for life. One is a feeble candidate who is past his best before date, and the other is an existential threat to the constitution of the country.

It's a pretty easy ####ing choice if you truly value democracy as much as you say you do.

Aren't Trump, Clinton, and Biden the 3 least liked Presidential candidates in history (at least since polling began)? I don't think that suggests that the current candidates are a good representation of what Americans want. They're just who the two parties and their members have offered up.

There's that Norm Macdonald joke that basically went like: "Americans hated Hillary Clinton so much that they elected a guy they hated even more out of spite", and there's actually a lot of truth in that. When Democrats position themselves as the sort of sane, status quo option while simultaneously offering up candidates that basically no one likes, that leaves a lot of room for people to just say "to hell with it" and vote for the crazy guy who promises change.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

It will never happen, but I wonder if there is any precedent for a sitting president to turf his VP running mate. Harris turned out to be a dud, and they might assuage the fears of Biden not surviving his term by replacing her.

Not recently, but FDR went into 4 elections with 3 different candidates for Vice-President. They were more decided by the party than the candidate back then, but if there was ever a situation where it made sense to ditch a VP candidate, this would be it. A declining 81 year old on the ticket with someone with a sub-40% favorability rating is a potential disaster.

[wittynickname]

I do love that the 'extreme left' in the US is just...wanting affordable healthcare and LGBTQ/Women's rights and livable wages and not wanting tens of thousands of gun deaths annually.

Extreme indeed.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Not recently, but FDR went into 4 elections with 3 different candidates for Vice-President. They were more decided by the party than the candidate back then, but if there was ever a situation where it made sense to ditch a VP candidate, this would be it. A declining 81 year old on the ticket with someone with a sub-40% favorability rating is a potential disaster.

Won’t happen. Identity politics is a nasty double edged sword.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Eh let’s not get all nationalistic about American politics on a Canadian hockey forum. If you’re that concerned about Canadians having an opinion you’re in the wrong place.

As far as this election goes I got a secret for you: it doesn’t matter. Oh everyone has been convinced it matters, they may even truly think it matters, but big picture it does not matter. To the vulnerable population in the US? Oh it matters for sure. But for most of us? Straight white males with a decent income? lol your life will not change in any meaningful way at all regardless of who’s elected. I understand the moral outrage at one side and heck I participate in it often but to think the fabric of reality will be unwoven because on bought and paid for politician wins instead of the other? Get outta here. Businesses will function, stockholders will get paid, economies will continue to roll, and that’s not going to change.

An interesting side effect of the increased polarization of American politics is the binary choice demands by each team. I can prefer one pile of crap to a separate pile of crap but demanding I love one of those steaming piles unconditionally over the other is a dumb ask. It’s reasonable to have the stance that I would rather not have to jam my hands into any piles of poo whether it’s from a donkey or an elephant.

There’s nothing more undemocratic than demanding party fealty in all matters because the other party is scary. Asking for more from a politician than “don’t be the other guy” shouldn’t be something that is derided it should be celebrated.

Nothing posted in the entire history of CP is more false than the bolded sentence above.

If Trump had totalitarian power with zero checks & balances on what he could do, he would be at least as ruthless and barbaric as Hitler. If you disagree, it means you've been living under a rock for the past 9 years.

A Trump win in November means that there will be no more legitimate elections in America. He will ensure that he stays president for life (just like Putin in Russia), and republican presidents have all future elections rigged in their favor.

You might think you'll be just fine in a world where the US is a rabid right-wing fascist country. But you might want to think again. What would the world be like today if Hitler in WW2 had the strongest military in the world and thousands of nukes at his disposal? The most likely answer is the entire world would be under Nazi rule to this day.

Letting Trump return to the White House is not just playing with fire... it's playing with a thousands tons of TNT, an olympic sized swimming pool of gasoline, and a flamethrower. Think this is all some kind of big joke? Give it 10 years... you'll be clamouring hard for the "unimaginably horrible 2024". You'll be clamouring and scraping so hard your fingertips will erode all the way to the bone.

Straight white males with a decent income? lol your life will not change in any meaningful way at all regardless of who’s elected.

Reading your post again a 2nd time... sheesh, it's even worse than the first time I read it. The above statement is a horrible thing to say. With that mindset, it's almost like saying no one other than Jews should have any issue with what Hitler did.

And hey, no problem if the guy in the WH is a climate change denier. The environment doesn't exist, neither does climate change. Who cares what type of planet we're leaving for future generations.

[PsYcNeT]

Okay so let's suppose that yes, Trump being re-elected is some post-apocolyptic event that ushers in a New Dark Age. What does electing Biden do? Kick the can down the road another 4 years?

The rise of Fascism in America has a face, but Trump is a symptom, not a cause.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Okay so let's suppose that yes, Trump being re-elected is some post-apocolyptic event that ushers in a New Dark Age. What does electing Biden do? Kick the can down the road another 4 years?

The rise of Fascism in America has a face, but Trump is a symptom, not a cause.

Yeah…. Did you anticipate some utopia where fighting for democracy and human rights against selfish animals would go away???????????

What’s your point? Bad people aren’t going away so let’s quit???

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Aren't Trump, Clinton, and Biden the 3 least liked Presidential candidates in history (at least since polling began)? I don't think that suggests that the current candidates are a good representation of what Americans want. They're just who the two parties and their members have offered up.

The era of 50+ per cent approval ratings for presidents and presidential candidates is over. Welcome to affective polarization and hyper-partisanship. Obama and Romney are decent people, and half of Americans still hated them.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Yeah…. Did you anticipate some utopia where fighting for democracy and human rights against selfish animals would go away???????????

What’s your point? Bad people aren’t going away so let’s quit???

I mean the systemic issues go far deeper than who is president, but I've already suggested that they curb Biden and bring in someone better, or make Biden truly embrace the Dark Brandon meme they've latched onto and go full-Republican and ram through a bunch of beneficial policy before the end of his term.

But they won't, because the Democrat role in the American Political Stage Play seems to be to the only party interested in keeping up a facade of decorum and civility while allowing Republicans to flout democracy and run rough-shod over human rights while holding their hands up and saying "Well there's nothing we can do!"

Kicking the can down the road might push an election past Trump dying (we can only hope), or we could get 80+ Trump vying in 2028 and going through all this all over again.

The issue with the Democrats is that at a fundamental level, they're more interested in maintaining the status quo with hilariously inept attempts at appeasement, while still trying to position themselves as a party of empathy.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The era of 50+ per cent approval ratings for presidents and presidential candidates is over. Welcome to affective polarization and hyper-partisanship. Obama and Romney are decent people, and half of Americans still hated them.

Obama had a 62% favorability rating during his re-election and Romney was 55%. That's vastly different than the ~40% ratings the current candidates have.

And Biden had a ~55% approval rating early in his term, so I don't really buy the notion that a higher approval rating is somehow impossible in the current climate. He's just an unpopular President.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Obama had a 62% favorability rating during his re-election and Romney was 55%. That's vastly different than the ~40% ratings the current candidates have.

Average approval ratings over their presidencies:

* George H W Bush 61
* Clinton 55
* George W Bush 49
* Obama 48
* Trump 41
* Biden 43 (as of Jan 22)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/116677/...cs-trends.aspx

That looks like a long-term trend.

It’s also a trend evident across Western democracies.

…Joe Biden’s record low popularity ratings get a lot of attention, yet leaders across the developed world are in a similar predicament to the US president — they have rarely been this unpopular.

I track leaders’ approval ratings in 20 major democracies, using leading pollsters such as Morning Consult, Gallup and Compolítica. In the developed world, no leader has a rating above 50 per cent. Only one country (Italy) has seen its leader gain approval in the 2020s. At 37 per cent, Biden’s rating is at a record low for a US president late in his first term — but above average for his peers.

Signs of old age may be hurting the 81-year-old Biden’s ratings but this does not explain the wider trend. Between 1950 and 2020, the average age of presidents and prime ministers in developed countries fell from above 60 to around 54. The leaders of Britain, Germany, France and Japan are far younger than Biden — but even less popular. All four have ratings below 30 per cent.

The debate about Biden centres on why he gets such low marks despite relatively strong recent economic data, including lower inflation. Yet approval ratings have been trending down for first term US presidents since Ronald Reagan in the 1980s. Biden supporters hope the improving economy will eventually lift his ratings, but he is up against deeply entrenched trends…

https://www.ft.com/content/a46540ac-...9-cbf176f43020

[GirlySports]

So people are just tired, exhausted and unhappy in general? (see women are exhausted thread)

Or they expect much much more from their leaders

[Azure]

Its really simple.

Endless wars and trillions wasted. Both Democrats & Republicans at fault.
Inflation & economic issues. Both Democrats & Republicans at fault.
Border crisis. Both Democrats & Republicans at fault. Yes I know they act like they are presenting options to fix the problem, but its hogwash.
Ballooning debt and deficit. Both at fault.

You can add to the list as needed.

I remember when the Democrats would not vote in favor of war, war, war. Now they have no problem doing that. I remember when Democrats were seen as the working man's party, now go ask most Americans. Its not as clear.

It doesn't mean Republicans are better, but a lot of the positions where Democrats have been 'better' they are really just more of the same or in some cases worse.

And its not even about who is POTUS. You have to look at the House & Senate, where members have often been serving for decades leading to all these issues.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I do love that the 'extreme left' in the US is just...wanting affordable healthcare and LGBTQ/Women's rights and livable wages and not wanting tens of thousands of gun deaths annually.

Extreme indeed.

Here’s a breakdown of the divides within the Democratic coalition:

Spoiler!

So progressives are out of step with other Democrats on whether success in life is mainly determined by forces outside our control, whether systems and laws need to be systematically rebuilt to improve outcomes for racial groups, whether the very existence of billionaires is bad, immigration levels, and religiosity.