[Trade] Habs trade Monahan to the Jets for a 2024 1st and cond 2027 3rd

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Yeah, it would. Focus on the guy that ruined the team and let quality players go for nothing. Players hold little responsibility to the direction of the team. When management ####s the bed it ruins the team long term. I would love the focus to land where it should instead of on the team generally.



Wow, that really triggered you. Don't worry, someday you'll get yours too if you're smart, apply yourself, and work hard. Well, maybe you won't.



Players come and go and are interchangeable. They don't make decisions that guide or change the fortunes of the organization. That is management's responsibility. When managers #### up, us fans feel it for years or decades. So when a manager takes a team with a great core and allows it to fall apart on their watch and drives the organization into the ditch, then yes, they deserve a great deal of derision, even after they leave the organization. I will say that when a guy sets the team up for failure and then ####s off to Toronto for his dream job, and all sorts of accolades, I take that as an affront to the team I cheer for. You can continue to fellate Treliving, but he deserves every bit of blame and derision he receives from the fans.

And I'm not your bud, pal.

Rough look, on a number of levels.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The only rough look here is the continued support and defense of a general manager that did everything in his power to run this team into the ground and then ran away to Toronto leaving the next guy in the lurch to clean up that mess.

The rough look is ignoring the fact that a manager's job is to leave an organization in a better stead than which they received it. Your hero left behind a roster in disarray, a salary broken structure, a minor league system bereft of prospects, a deficit of draft picks to address that concern, and a dysfunctional culture which required a purge. Even when the body of evidence continues to mount where it is pretty much universally accepted that Treliving left the team in the lurch and in a horrible situation, the defense and admiration continues.

Treliving's inability to hire a coach and waste years of player's careers, ignored. His inability to develop and stick to plan, disregarded. His terrible track record of bringing in free agents and overpaying them, forgiven. His inability to recognize the talent that needed to be kept long term and focus on paydays for overachievers which contributed to the skewed salary structure, all but forgotten. Treliving's lack of ability to distinguish which players who were going to be difference makers and make smart deals, marginalized. His habit of bleeding picks for useless veterans who never moved the needle and then allowed to walk away for nothing at the end of their contract, seemingly omitted from the memory. Worst of all, his moves in his final year which really hobbled the organization, in a Kathy Bates sort of way, completely ignored, even when the evidence of his incompetence is measured at every turn by other moves happening around him and the negativity landing on the team rather than the individual who put those moves into action. The continued defense of it all is insulting to the fanbase to be quite frank, and we don't deserve it.

That's a rough look, on all levels.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

The only rough look here is the continued support and defense of a general manager that did everything in his power to run this team into the ground and then ran away to Toronto leaving the next guy in the lurch to clean up that mess.

The rough look is ignoring the fact that a manager's job is to leave an organization in a better stead than which they received it. Your hero left behind a roster in disarray, a salary broken structure, a minor league system bereft of prospects, a deficit of draft picks to address that concern, and a dysfunctional culture which required a purge. Even when the body of evidence continues to mount where it is pretty much universally accepted that Treliving left the team in the lurch and in a horrible situation, the defense and admiration continues.

Treliving's inability to hire a coach and waste years of player's careers, ignored. His inability to develop and stick to plan, disregarded. His terrible track record of bringing in free agents and overpaying them, forgiven. His inability to recognize the talent that needed to be kept long term and focus on paydays for overachievers which contributed to the skewed salary structure, all but forgotten. Treliving's lack of ability to distinguish which players who were going to be difference makers and make smart deals, marginalized. His habit of bleeding picks for useless veterans who never moved the needle and then allowed to walk away for nothing at the end of their contract, seemingly omitted from the memory. Worst of all, his moves in his final year which really hobbled the organization, in a Kathy Bates sort of way, completely ignored, even when the evidence of his incompetence is measured at every turn by other moves happening around him and the negativity landing on the team rather than the individual who put those moves into action. The continued defense of it all is insulting to the fanbase to be quite frank, and we don't deserve it.

That's a rough look, on all levels.

Geez, didn’t you say I was the one who was triggered?

Look, you can’t go one week here without bringing Treliving up, multiple times. He wasn’t a bad GM. Did he make poor decisions, yep. Guess what, they all do. Every single one of them and you conveniently like to ignore the direction ownership has on the team and what they do.

Meanwhile your dog sh*t trade proposals over the years don’t really seem to suggest you would be any better at the job, or have any clue of how to do it. Best part is there’s no indication you’re capable of acknowledging you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Again, I’m not sure if there’s a bigger self assured blowhard on this forum.

Mentioned this in a thread yesterday but, contrary to your opinion, the Flames were left in a fairly favourable position. I would say a whole lot better than many GM’s leave their teams. Conroy inherited a team with 7 UFA’s, plus several other assets worth considerable value (Markstrom being one), and a decent crop of young players. Evidently the cupboards are t quite as bare as you’ve been telling us, another indication you don’t know what you don’t know. Conroy has a fantastic opportunity to shape this team for the next decade plus without having to take a team that’s teetering on the competitive window left wondering ‘should we or shouldn’t we?’ The direction was clear and now it’s Conroy’s time.

I’m sure you’ll choose to not see thr situation for what it actually is and continue to prattle on about that dastardly Treliving left us a huge mess from which we’ll never recover. You’ll blame him for as long as you can, I’m sure.

Anyway, keep paddling down stream while patting yourself on the back, Lanny. So bold…..

[Lanny_McDonald]

TOfan. Proof that denial is not a river in Egypt. Just embraced everything in the post he responded to.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

TOfan. Proof that denial is not a river in Egypt. Just embraced everything in the post he responded to.

Brilliant. Confused and a blowhard.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Look in the mirror, pal. No brilliance though. Just a confused blowhard.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Look in the mirror, pal. No brilliance though. Just a confused blowhard.

Nothing new to add? Very well.

A good day to you, sir.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Bonded

My issue with it is that the rumour mill was much lower than 10.5 million. Treliving screwed up in that he thought Gaudreau was a core piece and he walked him to free agency because he got too cute in negotiations.
He also seemed to negotiate much harder with home grown guys than UFAs.

UFAs have more leverage.

Every GM has to negotiate harder with home grown guys.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Gaudreau was fine signing an extension the summer before and Tkachuk was apparently willing to not take a bridge deal. Tre messed up. You must also be a leafs fan with how much water you carry for him.

Or he just disagrees with you.

This is a discussion forum.

Put a lid on crap like water carrying ... it's a weak way to make a point.

[GioforPM]

No one knows what Treliving offered Gaudreau coming off of two seasons at something like .7 PPG, at a time when lost of posters called Gaudreau a peripheral, complementary player, and not an elite player. And hardly anyone has said what would have been a fair offer at that time. Why is it assumed that Treliving was the one making unreasonable demands?

Tkachuk - my sense is that that kid knows how to play media. He says he was willing to take a long term deal, but if you look at what he says, his "long term" sounds like 5 years. And you know he wanted a lot of money. At the time he looked promising but no one saw a 100+ point season coming I think.

[browna]

For me, there are a few factors with Gaudreau.

I really think he had assumed, and his agent was going to make it happen, that he would land in Philly.
The year prior to him leaving, Sutter had just finished his first 3/4 season, playoffs missed, and not sure where the Flames were headed.
Him and wife planned to have a baby and move forward with their lives.

Those factors, in combination prevented JG from wanting to sign long term here. He really liked Calgary but those factors and that MT was likely on his way out after the next season, gave him less reason to stay.

However, the next season started. The team was on fire. His line was on fire. He was on fire. He really responded positive to Sutter and the team was lights out. An epic playoff round with the city in the palm of the team's hand (which wasn't the case a couple years earlier with a really good team that fell apart vs COL). A once in a career game 7 OT winner. A BOA, which while the most disgusting of losses, he still saw the fire the city had for the team and for him.

And then, his presumed and desired landing spot he had in mind for the last years, didn't materialize.

But, decision he and his wife mostly agreed to long before, to move closer to their parents, to feel comfortable with a new baby and start a new chapter, was already mostly in place.

So, his thoughts professionally goes from being behind that plan, to, now, staying; being on a top team in the league, putting up career stats, with a coach that gets the most out of him and his teammates, a city that always has loved him, and a chance to be a Flame for life and have #13 retired in a decade if he stays.

But, his promise to his wife he previously made wins out. Goes to a team that simply, somewhat, satisfies his geographical promise to move closer to home.

So, IMO, if him and his wife decided to have the child a year before or after his UFA status, my guess is he is still a Flame right now. Him changing his mind from their plans to move closer to home, he just couldn't do it at the last minute, even though his experience here that last season changed his mindset, about being a Flame and, he wasn't going to be going to Philly.

And then him staying and signing sets things up totally different for the franchise this last 20 months. Tkachuk was leaving no matter what, but JG would still have Lindholm. Would the JH trade still happen as is? Maybe, maybe not. Could've been a different trade for a different type of asset than JH and Weeger. If the trade was the same, Flames wouldn't have been able to afford Kadri.

Him staying last year means his stats don't fall of a cliff (nor Lindholm's) means also the playoffs last year, and with that much more positive vibe around the team. Treliving still was probably on his way to Toronto but with a different narrative and Sutter is still likely the coach...which is a good thing, again, this isn't in a vacuum, Sutter himself wouldve been a different person last year if he had JG because he liked Johnny and knew how good JG was, and JG adapted to fit Darryl's style. Instead Sutter got a JH and not the same mentality as JG and they never got along.

And with last year being positive, a playoff year, and still decent stats for JG and Lindholm, Lindholm and maybe even fellow American Hanifin, re signs last offseason.

Bottom line, professionally speaking, for all the right reasons, JG regretted moving away from here before he even left the city. He still regrets it because he knoes he'd be a better player on this team and in this city, and would have a chance to do more and win more and leave a legacy here. His stats the last two years would be significantly better. The Flames would be a better team last year and aot more positive then the way things spiraled down because JG left. And they would've made the playoffs last year and who knows.

But, personally his family made a life decision long before July 2022, and he honored that in the end.

[browna]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No one knows what Treliving offered Gaudreau coming off of two seasons at something like .7 PPG, at a time when lost of posters called Gaudreau a peripheral, complementary player, and not an elite player. And hardly anyone has said what would have been a fair offer at that time. Why is it assumed that Treliving was the one making unreasonable demands?

As I said in my long post, that offseaosn I think JG knew MT was leaving the next year, wife wanted to have a baby, and Philly was an option next offseason. Flames had missed playoffs. So he chose at that point to not committ, no matter what the $ was. JG credited Sutter for getting him to work hard and in the right way that offseason though, and did it ever pay off.

Tkachuk - my sense is that that kid knows how to play media. He says he was willing to take a long term deal, but if you look at what he says, his "long term" sounds like 5 years. And you know he wanted a lot of money. At the time he looked promising but no one saw a 100+ point season coming I think.

Yeah, he was gone when he signed his previous contract, which put the Flames in a position to have to trade him before playing his last year here. That played out just as planned.

There was zero surprise or drama from the Flames around him asking for a trade, because it was known by Treliving and others for months in advance no matter how the season finished.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by PegCityFlamesFan

It's amazing how almost every thread ends up with the same discussion.

Except that thread where a couple posters expressed displeasure at an acquisitions lgbtq stance. That crap was shut down IMMEDIATLY!! Can't have that garbage off topic stuff happening here on the great CP! Unless it's any other derail or off topic stuff, then it's fine.

[topfiverecords]

Is this the Jankowski thread? Asking for a friend.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

None of this is assured. There’s no more reason to believe that if Treliving signed Gaudreau in ‘21, or was signing the teams own free agents to more lucrative deals that the Flames would have or would be better off today. The Oilers did exactly that with Hall, Eberle, RNH etc. should Treliving have handed Sam Bennett 6x6?

Treliving deserves his fair share of responsibility but it’s far more likely the reason the Flames are in the gutter today, as you put it, is because they’re a smallish Canadian market in the middle of nowhere with an aged arena. The Flames had and will continue to have an uphill battle to keep and attract high end talent.

I’d rather gamble on a guy I know over a guy I don’t know especially when you take into Treliving’s checkered history of overpaying for guys who he’s never seen play in a Flames sweater.

When did Sam Bennett ever show he was a 6 x 6 guy? He wasn’t even close to that kind of money whereas Gaudreau had led his team in scoring 5 out of his past 6 seasons and was top 10 in cumulative points among all NHLers in that time frame. That’s pretty damn elite IMO.

Also, how does being a small market team with a crappy arena equate to being bad? Winnipeg is an even smaller market team and they’re one of the best teams in the league right now. They’ve got a good GM over there who’s patient and drafts well and more importantly, hasn’t regularly handcuffed his team with poor cap decisions.

The Jets for instance certainly would never trade for a Travis Hamonic or Brian Elliott only for it to turn into a Noah Dobson and a Jordan Kyrou. How much better would the Flames have been or would be today if they had kept the picks and drafted these guys instead or at the very least, targeted some more impactful players who weren’t so incredibly average.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bonded

No that is hand waving away all the mistakes Treliving made. He was terrible with coaches and he boxed himself in with his crappy UFA signings. Tkachuk had to bridge because of cap. That’s on Treliving and dipping into the free agent market. He is doing the same thing in Toronto.

Yep, without that colossal mistake that was James Neal, the team would easily have enough money to ink Tkachuk to a long term 8 year deal with plenty of cap left over to add another quality player. But because of the Troy Brouwer buy out and the awful James Neal/Lucic contracts, the team had too much dead money on the books to afford the necessary raises and extensions for their homegrown guys.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Is this the Jankowski thread? Asking for a friend.

No this one is for Jarome Iginla being traded a year too late.

[Strange Brew]

There were worse moves but giving up a 2nd round pick for Curtis Lazar kind of cemented for me that Treliving was at best an average NHL GM. I'm finding it very easy to cheer for the moves that Conroy is making and really glad there is a new guy calling the shots.

If there is one trend that I see carrying over from the Treliving years is the reluctance to move players until they declare their intentions that they want out. Even now, I think the preference internally is to re-sign both Hanifin and Tanev. Toffoli, Zadorov and Lindholm are all gone because they made it clear they weren't coming back.

The organization is loyal to players which is great, as I'm sure that is done in an effort to build a reputation as a place where players want to sign. But maybe they bend too far in that direction.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I think a lot of people seem to forget the two seasons prior to his UFA season. Below ppg production and plenty of poor body language. If Gaudreau’s playing at that level, I would have had a hard time signing him for 8x8, or whatever was his side was requesting.

Nobody forgets this point, they mention it all the time and I constantly have to respond to the exact same retort every time. You have to know your players and their true value. It’s one of the most important aspects a GM’s job. Even with Gaudreau’s so called “down seasons,” he was still a top 10 point getter amongst all NHL forwards after his rookie season ahead of notable superstars like Alex Ovechkin, John Tavares, Anze Kopitar and etc. Does that sound like a guy who should be receiving “embarrassing offers” from his GM?

Also, I don’t even consider 2021 a bad season for Gaudreau. I thought he looked like his old dynamic self for the vast majority of that season minus that one month adjustment period when Ward was fired and Darryl arrived. He had fixed his breakaway issues and looked absolutely spectacular with his new line mates in Lindholm-Tkachuk at the tail end of the season. If the team wasn’t so handcuffed with dead money, they might have been able to afford better depth players than Dominic Simon, Josh Leivo, Brett Ritchie and etc.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

There were worse moves but giving up a 2nd round pick for Curtis Lazar kind of cemented for me that Treliving was at best an average NHL GM. I'm finding it very easy to cheer for the moves that Conroy is making and really glad there is a new guy calling the shots.

If there is one trend that I see carrying over from the Treliving years is the reluctance to move players until they declare their intentions that they want out. Even now, I think the preference internally is to re-sign both Hanifin and Tanev. Toffoli, Zadorov and Lindholm are all gone because they made it clear they weren't coming back.

The organization is loyal to players which is great, as I'm sure that is done in an effort to build a reputation as a place where players want to sign. But maybe they bend too far in that direction.

Toffoli, Zadorov and Lindholm all wanted to stay, Conroy decided he didnt want to sign them.