Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Do we honestly believe they're not looking into this?

That Murray Edwards would prefer to pay him the rest of his contract for love of the human?

This is akin to thinking a duck on a pond is just floating because you can't see his feet moving 1000 mph.

The issues is they have had what, 18 months to come up with a plan? Do you think they didn't think about it until he was arrested?

Bettman publicly said they will continue to be paid, so that seems to be their plan.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

So basically everyone is signed for one year?

Forget a salary cap. And UFA even sooner.

And teams moving from Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa etc.

That’s quite the leap

Non guaranteed contracts can be longer than 1 year and can exist in a capped league

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

The issues is they have had what, 18 months to come up with a plan? Do you think they didn't think about it until he was arrested?

Bettman publicly said they will continue to be paid, so that seems to be their plan.

Most reports are certainly suggesting the teams didn't know.

The NHL publically saying the contracts will be paid is more proof that the Flames hands are tied in nixing the contract than proof that they don't want to.

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I agree.

Was it rape?

Were you there?

How would you know 100% what it really was if you weren't there?

I never claimed to know anything about this case. My comment was that rape is a crime and no one should need the perspective of hindsight to realize this.

Edit to Add: My comment was more related to the idea of calling rape a mistake. These terms minimize rape and lead to a culture of "boys will be boys," etc.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Most reports are certainly suggesting the teams didn't know.

The NHL publically saying the contracts will be paid is more proof that the Flames hands are tied in nixing the contract than proof that they don't want to.

Of course they didn’t know. These guys went through a hockey Canada cover up already years ago. There is no chance in hell any info was leaked by them since then, as they already would have gone through this with lawyers. They always knew this was a problem/future problem, from the moments immediately after the assault. .

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Most reports are certainly suggesting the teams didn't know.

The NHL publically saying the contracts will be paid is more proof that the Flames hands are tied in nixing the contract than proof that they don't want to.

Reports are they didn't know charges were coming right now. But they damn sure knew there was a possibility charges would be coming, as they even said they heard other times that charges were coming but didn't materialize. No business would ignore that and not have a detailed plan of action.

They had plenty of time to come up with a good plan, and this is what hey came up with.

Their hands are not tied by the NHL, as we've seen with Perry, Kane and Richards.

I fully believe they didn't know charges were coming when they issued a press release about Dube and mental health leave, but now that he has been charged it's time to fully cut ties.

Tha Flames don't need to wait for a conviction to terminate his contract, that's not how morality clauses in contracts work. Terminate and let him litigate if he wishes.


This was an epic fail on the Flames part, and one they will carry with them for a very long time.

[Red Potato Standing By]

One they will carry with them with some fans. Not everyone shares the same opinion

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Reports are they didn't know charges were coming right now. But they damn sure knew there was a possibility charges would be coming, as they even said they heard other times that charges were coming but didn't materialize. No business would ignore that and not have a detailed plan of action.

They had plenty of time to come up with a good plan, and this is what hey came up with.

Their hands are not tied by the NHL, as we've seen with Perry, Kane and Richards.

I fully believe they didn't know charges were coming when they issued a press release about Dube and mental health leave, but now that he has been charged it's time to fully cut ties.

Tha Flames don't need to wait for a conviction to terminate his contract, that's not how morality clauses in contracts work. Terminate and let him litigate if he wishes.


This was an epic fail on the Flames part, and one they will carry with them for a very long time.

You're just pulling things out of nowhere though.

Why would the Flames not do everything the could to sever ties and not pay the remainder of his contract? I just don't see the motivation.

The NHL has said the salaries will be paid. That suggests they've told the teams that much otherwise how would they know? They've made their call.

So you don't know what the NHL has told them they can and can't do.

You don't know what they're doing behind the scenes, what questions they've asked, what they would have wanted to do if they could.

[Enoch Root]

I just don't get the Flames hate over this. It's a ####ty situation. But this isn't on them. They are dealing with it, along with the other teams, and are being directed by the NHL in this regard.

It all sucks. But it isn't a reason to hate on the Flames (unless you're just looking for another chance to hate on the Flames)

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It all sucks. But it isn't a reason to hate on the Flames (unless you're just looking for another chance to hate on the Flames)

Well, of course people are looking for another chance to hate on the Flames. That's what Flames fans do best.

Nobody here seems to be criticizing New Jersey or Philly for doing exactly the same thing the Flames did (bar the ‘mental health’ wording of the press release).

At this point, with respect to Dube, the Flames have two options:

1. Suspend him with pay for the rest of the year and then let him go away.
2. Try to cancel his contract, fight the NHL over it, fight the PA, pay lawyers to fight an inevitable countersuit, and likely end up paying his remaining salary anyway.

The only reason to do #2 is to appease a bunch of people on the Internet who want to see someone hang. Why bother? I'm pretty confident that Dube will be sufficiently punished by the courts and by the loss of his NHL career. But neither of those things is going to happen now! now! now!, so they're not good enough for a few people who think retribution ought to be instant and comprehensive.

[Goriders]

Number 2 would probably costs the same or more than number 1.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Reports are they didn't know charges were coming right now. But they damn sure knew there was a possibility charges would be coming, as they even said they heard other times that charges were coming but didn't materialize. No business would ignore that and not have a detailed plan of action.

They had plenty of time to come up with a good plan, and this is what hey came up with.

Their hands are not tied by the NHL, as we've seen with Perry, Kane and Richards.

I fully believe they didn't know charges were coming when they issued a press release about Dube and mental health leave, but now that he has been charged it's time to fully cut ties.

Tha Flames don't need to wait for a conviction to terminate his contract, that's not how morality clauses in contracts work. Terminate and let him litigate if he wishes.


This was an epic fail on the Flames part, and one they will carry with them for a very long time.

There was talk of charges for a while, since 2022. But there was zero indication that I know of that, of all the players who attended the event, the 5 charged were the likely culprits. Dube's original statement through his agent was no different than a bunch of others who were not charged. So why would the Flames come up with such a plan before now?

Honestly, it's been only a few days, and even if they'd made a plan, carrying it out would take this long anyway.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You're just pulling things out of nowhere though.

Why would the Flames not do everything the could to sever ties and not pay the remainder of his contract? I just don't see the motivation.

The NHL has said the salaries will be paid. That suggests they've told the teams that much otherwise how would they know? They've made their call.

So you don't know what the NHL has told them they can and can't do.

You don't know what they're doing behind the scenes, what questions they've asked, what they would have wanted to do if they could.

You don't either. All we know is they have stated the players are on leave and being paid while the legal process plays out, and they will not comment further.

You believe ythe NHL was onside for terminating Perry's Contract because he allegedly made a drunken pass at a reporter, and Kane because his ex wife made allegations against him, but not 5 players who have actually been criminally charged with sexual assault.

You believe that?

The NHL and Flames are doing what they have always done, close their eyes and hope the problem goes away. Same with pain killers, same with CTE, same with a host of other issues.

Their motivation is simple. If they terminate these contracts they are admitting there is an issue with this type of behaviour and that there was at some level a coverup attempted or they were cool looking he other way for 20 months. I think they are still hoping for an acquittal so they can pretend nothing happened and then let these players fade into obscurity.

Everyone in hockey knew about this. But you are letting them off the hook because they were wilfully ignorant. Maybe they didn't find a problem because they purposefully didn't look for a problem.The entire league passed on Formenton and forced him to play in Europe. You cannot reconcile that fact with a belief that teams didn't know something really bad happened.

Saying the Flames have to wait for the courts to decide is just another way to enable this behavior. No wonder victims still don't come forward.

[Groot]

Evander Kane was terminated for violating covid protocol. Perry was terminated and admitted & accepted fault.

None of the 5 players have been convicted yet. They will all likely plead not guilty. If the NHL or teams terminated their contracts before a conviction when they are still claiming innocence, and any of them were found not guilty, the league and the teams would be held liable for significant damages well above their contract values.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There was talk of charges for a while, since 2022. But there was zero indication that I know of that, of all the players who attended the event, the 5 charged were the likely culprits. Dube's original statement through his agent was no different than a bunch of others who were not charged. So why would the Flames come up with such a plan before now?

Honestly, it's been only a few days, and even if they'd made a plan, carrying it out would take this long anyway.

Maybe it's just me, but Dube's statement through his lawyer sounded a little more dubious than most of the others. Saying that he didn't engage in criminal wrongdoing isn't quite the same as saying the allegations are troubling and that their client wasn't involved. I think Carter Hart's lawyer also used the same term.

I never felt great about Dube's statement compared to some of the others and in the back of my mind, I was preparing to see him involved.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Groot

Evander Kane was terminated for violating covid protocol (although I seem to recall the stuff with his ex wife at the same time). Perry was terminated and admitted & accepted fault.

None of the 5 players have been convicted yet. They will all likely plead not guilty. If the NHL or teams terminated their contracts before a conviction when they are still claiming innocence, and any of them were found not guilty, the league and the teams would be held liable for significant damages well above their contract values.

No, Kane was terminated for allegedly violating COVID protocol and after he was terminated the league investigation cleared him of wrongdoing.

Perry was terminated and the league and NHLPA just agreed to extend the time period for him to file a grievance, so we don't know where that one is going.

In both cases the league was onside with terminating the contracts before anything was proven in an courtroom, which seems to be the standard we are for some reason applying here.

If the Flames violate the terms of Dube's contract by terminating improperly would the civil recourse not be to place him in a position as if the contract were properly executed. Why would anything above his contract amount be awarded? What would they have done that damages him beyond the value of his current contract?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

No, Kane was terminated for allegedly violating COVID protocol and after he was terminated the league investigation cleared him of wrongdoing.

Perry was terminated and the league and NHLPA just agreed to extend the time period for him to file a grievance, so we don't know where that one is going.

In both cases the league was onside with terminating the contracts before anything was proven in an courtroom, which seems to be the standard we are for some reason applying here.

If the Flames violate the terms of Dune's contract by terminating improperly the civil recourse would be to place him in a position as if the contract were properly executed.Why would anything above his contract amount be awarded? What have they done that had damaged him beyond the value of his current contract?

My guess?

Defamation.

It would suggest guilt of a heinous crime which then follows the person for the rest of their lives and impair future earning abilities.

If they just pay him the little bit left on his existing deal, they can then just walk away with zero responsibility ever again.

I mean....there has likely been dozens of highly respected lawyers in on these decisions, so i would suggest all parties involved are listening to that advice rather than knee-jerking moves that do nothing but satisfy a bloodlust among the public and could cost more financially down the road.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

No, Kane was terminated for allegedly violating COVID protocol and after he was terminated the league investigation cleared him of wrongdoing.

Perry was terminated and the league and NHLPA just agreed to extend the time period for him to file a grievance, so we don't know where that one is going.

In both cases the league was onside with terminating the contracts before anything was proven in an courtroom, which seems to be the standard we are for some reason applying here.

If the Flames violate the terms of Dube's contract by terminating improperly would the civil recourse not be to place him in a position as if the contract were properly executed. Why would anything above his contract amount be awarded? What would they have done that damages him beyond the value of his current contract?

Kane's contract was terminated for him acting like a jerk and his teammates not wanting him there anymore, and that it just wasn't a great contract compared to what he was producing. Not enough to put up with the side -show anyway. The Sharks put him under the microscope and tried to get him on the COVID thing. I bet there are a lot of players that you catch on various things if the team looked hard enough.

I think the Flames have grounds to terminate Dube's contract and they should. If there is a grievance and the Flames lose, then so what. It just means they have to pay him, which is what they are committed to doing anyway. At least if they terminate the contract, it shows that they see this as a big deal.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Maybe it's just me, but Dube's statement through his lawyer sounded a little more dubious than most of the others. Saying that he didn't engage in criminal wrongdoing isn't quite the same as saying the allegations are troubling and that their client wasn't involved. I think Carter Hart's lawyer also used the same term.

I never felt great about Dube's statement compared to some of the others and in the back of my mind, I was preparing to see him involved.

The statement you are talking about was identical to a whole bunch of players, some of whom are not part of the 5.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

No, Kane was terminated for allegedly violating COVID protocol and after he was terminated the league investigation cleared him of wrongdoing.

Perry was terminated and the league and NHLPA just agreed to extend the time period for him to file a grievance, so we don't know where that one is going.

In both cases the league was onside with terminating the contracts before anything was proven in an courtroom, which seems to be the standard we are for some reason applying here.

If the Flames violate the terms of Dube's contract by terminating improperly would the civil recourse not be to place him in a position as if the contract were properly executed. Why would anything above his contract amount be awarded? What would they have done that damages him beyond the value of his current contract?

Yes, the league itself felt that Kane and Perry were guilty of actions that provided just cause to terminate their contracts. The NHL doesn't know if any of the 5 are guilty of actions that provide cause to terminate their contracts as they haven't been convicted.

If the league terminated any of the contracts it would be tantamount to the league and teams saying they believe they're guilty and there is cause to terminate the contracts. If they aren't found guilty that would be considerable personal damage well beyond the scope of the contracts. There's a reason the NHL nor the teams are saying anything and it isn't some malicious attempt to close their eyes and hope it goes away.