Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton found not guilty of sexual assault

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red Potato Standing By

What happens if the evidence is out there and the outcome is they are actually innocent? Their names are still out there and people will unfortunately still label them as guilty because they already had their minds made up.

There is no outcome that they are declared "innocent" short of the girl saying publicly that she isn't telling the truth. Which (a) I doubt and (b) won't happen.

They might be found not guilty which is a far cry from being declared innocent. Or the charges may be dropped, which is also not being declared innocent.

They will either be found guilty and face criminal repercussions or be found not guilty and still have the cloud over them. Is the latter what you meant?

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Red Potato Standing By

What happens if the evidence is out there and the outcome is they are actually innocent? Their names are still out there and people will unfortunately still label them as guilty because they already had their minds made up.

They aren’t innocent.

There might not be enough evidence to secure a conviction, in no small part due to how these defendants acted after the assault.

But they settled the case civilly already, and not because there was nothing there. It was to prevent the details of what happened from seeing the light of day.

More importantly, this isn’t a he said/she said - this is a she said/they said.

The first person to flip gets the best deal from prosecutors, and then…

Yahtzee.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

They aren’t innocent.

There might not be enough evidence to secure a conviction, in no small part due to how these defendants acted after the assault.

But they settled the case civilly already, and not because there was nothing there. It was to prevent the details of what happened from seeing the light of day.

More importantly, this isn’t a he said/she said - this is a she said/they said.

The first person to flip gets the best deal from prosecutors, and then…

Yahtzee.

Also, the events aren't in dispute. The consent is.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Coach

Also, the events aren't in dispute. The consent is.

I don’t even see how that’s in dispute now - the victim went to the police almost immediately. Then sued after the London Police bungled the responsibility.

She didn’t consent to ####.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I don’t even see how that’s in dispute now - the victim went to the police almost immediately. Then sued after the London Police bungled the responsibility.

She didn’t consent to ####.

You truley believe every female to go to the police has been truthful in the history of human kind...

Go watch ESPN 30 for 30 fantastic lies.

It happens.

I have no idea that whether it is in dispute or not. Because I actually havent seen any evidence, and I wasn't there.

And lots of people settle who are innocent to avoid the risk, public backlash, etc. It is very very common

But thats why there is due process and not people on a message board deciding who is guilty

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I don’t even see how that’s in dispute now - the victim went to the police almost immediately. Then sued after the London Police bungled the responsibility.

She didn’t consent to ####.

The problem is the evidence of consent v. no consent. I actually think the original complaint was made by a relative, BTW.

The problem here will be the lack of an actual verbal indication at the time that there was no consent. All of them will say - no she was a willing participant and never said no. Plus, as I understand it, there was some text or phone communication right after the fact where the victim said she did consent.

On the other side will be any evidence that the accuseds should have know that there wasn't any consent - signs of impairment (and to what degree), the mere fact of whether any consent in that weird situation could be assmed no matter what. There the after the fact conversations might cut the other way - whoever contacted her must have done so because they knew it was questionable. Plus there may be some accused who cut a deal and give evidence against the others.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The problem is the evidence of consent v. no consent. I actually think the original complaint was made by a relative, BTW.

The problem here will be the lack of an actual verbal indication at the time that there was no consent. All of them will say - no she was a willing participant and never said no. Plus, as I understand it, there was some text or phone communication right after the fact where the victim said she did consent.

On the other side will be any evidence that the accuseds should have know that there wasn't any consent - signs of impairment (and to what degree), the mere fact of whether any consent in that weird situation could be assmed no matter what. There the after the fact conversations might cut the other way - whoever contacted her must have done so because they knew it was questionable. Plus there may be some accused who cut a deal and give evidence against the others.

As it pertains to securing a criminal conviction, maybe there’s not enough evidence.

Is there enough evidence for me as an individual to conclude these boys have acted disgracefully?

Yeah, there is.

And that’s before anyone flips.

[flylock shox]

If this article is correct, and the accounts of the players match the complainants account as to what transpired except for the element of consent, then their reputations are still cooked given the degrading nature of the conduct regardless of consent.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wor...ndon-1.7096096

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The problem is the evidence of consent v. no consent. I actually think the original complaint was made by a relative, BTW.

The problem here will be the lack of an actual verbal indication at the time that there was no consent. All of them will say - no she was a willing participant and never said no. Plus, as I understand it, there was some text or phone communication right after the fact where the victim said she did consent.

On the other side will be any evidence that the accuseds should have know that there wasn't any consent - signs of impairment (and to what degree), the mere fact of whether any consent in that weird situation could be assmed no matter what. There the after the fact conversations might cut the other way - whoever contacted her must have done so because they knew it was questionable. Plus there may be some accused who cut a deal and give evidence against the others.

Thank goodness for people who actually UNDERSTAND law instead of making it up as they go along.


FWIW, though, the recent Supreme Court Vu case (2024 SCC 1) could be problematic, but I've not read it yet and am not familiar with the fact pattern, and it was reviewing a Court Martial. But that may well be a determinant. (The accused was found Not Guilty and the complainant was, it appears, extremely inebriated.)

[flylock shox]

Re: the Vu case, there was also some fairly damning video evidence, which will be a factor in this case too.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Exactly. Whenever I see a post with chatgpt or any ai, I just scroll on by. At least it's not as common as when it first came out

Oh that was awful for awhile. Everyone just excitedly going "OMG here's what it said when I said this!!!! Ahahahahh, amazing! Then I got carried away and here's 20 more!!!".

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

As it pertains to securing a criminal conviction, maybe there’s not enough evidence.

Is there enough evidence for me as an individual to conclude these boys have acted disgracefully?

Yeah, there is.

And that’s before anyone flips.

This is me as well. I’m just saying people should expect a very messy and uncertain outcome.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

You truley believe every female to go to the police has been truthful in the history of human kind...

Go watch ESPN 30 for 30 fantastic lies.

It happens.

I have no idea that whether it is in dispute or not. Because I actually havent seen any evidence, and I wasn't there.

And lots of people settle who are innocent to avoid the risk, public backlash, etc. It is very very common

But thats why there is due process and not people on a message board deciding who is guilty

With the information we currently have, do you think she made this up?

It’s black or white here. She either is making it up, or she is not. Do you think she’s making it up?

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

As it pertains to securing a criminal conviction, maybe there’s not enough evidence.

Is there enough evidence for me as an individual to conclude these boys have acted disgracefully?

Yeah, there is.

And that’s before anyone flips.

Not sure that would be enough in court.

But either way. A lot of lives will be ruined.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Not sure that would be enough in court.

But either way. A lot of lives will be ruined.

A lot of lives are ruined - first and foremost, the girl’s.

Don’t forget, this new investigation isn’t her doing. This was settled and gone away.

The only reason this has come back into view is because Hockey Canada had a slush fund for sex cases.

This in turn prompts re-examining of the initial investigation, which took less than three days and was obviously insufficient.

I know it isn’t likely enough to send these boys to prison.

But the facts of the case will become even more widespread. Everyone will know what they did.

I don’t need a court judgement before I know whether or not these guys did the right thing - they clearly didn’t.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Someone can correct me if I’ve got this wrong but one of the players went into the room with pizza while the assault was occurring, or in some state of it. He said he couldn’t really tell what was going on and whether it was consensual. He left after 10 mins or so.

There are some speculating that pizza guy could have been Dube.

One player was invited up to the room to have some pizza. He arrived to find no pizza, but witnessed the orgy/gangbang/gang-rape. He sticks around for 10 minutes. It's unclear if he's waiting for the pizza to arrive (spoiler: there is no pizza coming) or if he's watching the sex and trying to figure out if it's consensual or if he just is trying to get out of there asap without participating.

Eventually he leaves without participating in the sex or eating pizza.

Its plausible the police issue a warrant for his arrest on some lesser charge. Or the whole charge if they're not sure if he's telling the truth.

[traptor]

If they end up not being convicted because prosecution is unable to prove lack of consent do these guys end up back in the NHL?

I sure hope not.

Even if they're not found criminal guilty, after knowing what has transpired it would feel pretty disgusting see them back.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by traptor

If they end up not being convicted because prosecution is unable to prove lack of consent do these guys end up back in the NHL?

I sure hope not.

Even if they're not found criminal guilty, after knowing what has transpired it would feel pretty disgusting see them back.

I doubt it. None of the players of consequence enough that teams will want the bad PR that comes along with it. Players on expiring contracts won't be signed. Players with term will likely get bought out. Out of all the rumoured players involved, Carter Hart probably has the most upside and I suppose the Oilers might take him on and spin it as another "redemption story". Other than that, I think the rest have all played their last NHL game.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

One player was invited up to the room to have some pizza. He arrived to find no pizza, but witnessed the orgy/gangbang/gang-rape. He sticks around for 10 minutes. It's unclear if he's waiting for the pizza to arrive (spoiler: there is no pizza coming) or if he's watching the sex and trying to figure out if it's consensual or if he just is trying to get out of there asap without participating.

Eventually he leaves without participating in the sex or eating pizza.

Its plausible the police issue a warrant for his arrest on some lesser charge. Or the whole charge if they're not sure if he's telling the truth.

Or he is not charged at all

Only 5 were reported being charged.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I doubt it. None of the players of consequence enough that teams will want the bad PR that comes along with it. Players on expiring contracts won't be signed. Players with term will likely get bought out. Out of all the rumoured players involved, Carter Hart probably has the most upside and I suppose the Oilers might take him on and spin it as another "redemption story". Other than that, I think the rest have all played their last NHL game.

You are ignoring the history of this sport. Most of these guys will find another chance in the NHL again if not convicted.