Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[Ped]

I've already admitted that it's entirely possible the same 5 on leave aren't the same 5 who are being charged. I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly possible. But making mental gymastics to absolve Dube, and only Dube, is in poor taste imo

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Is it 5 plus the "pizza guy", or 5 with him?

Could the investigators be trying to build a stronger case against a couple from the testimony of others? Or is their case already made and the 5 are to being charged?

It's 4-6 guys. Which allows for 4 players and a pizza guy.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ped

I've already admitted that it's entirely possible the same 5 on leave aren't the same 5 who are being charged. I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly possible. But making mental gymastics to absolve Dube, and only Dube, is in poor taste imo

Nobody is trying to absolve him. For the most part, people are just discussing what we actually know (what’s been said by Dube, agents, lawyers, what’s been released by different teams). Some of that happens to include information that leaves a plausible scenario where Dube was not directly involved.

Discussing what we actually know, especially because we know so little, doesn’t absolve anyone. You’re being absurd.

[blender]

This whole discussion is in poor taste.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blender

This whole discussion is in poor taste.

Oh sure...you wanna blame that on the Pizza guy too?? He didnt make it!!

[Ped]

That’s a pretty trashy accusation to lob at other posters. Between this and the tool who called people “bootlickers” solely because they were unwilling to jump to a conclusion, I’m not sure exactly what some of you are trying to accomplish.

Really? I mean, jumping to a conclusion is one thing, but looking at the actual facts that we have and seeing what makes the most sense, barring any more information, is another thing.


Where are the posts decrying Carter Hart's innocence? Where are the posts suggesting that it's likely McLeod who left the room because he was uncomfortable? Where are the posts insisting Cal Foote wasn't one of the 5? I mean we actually had someone argue that we only really "know" Alex Formenton is one of the five because he's coming from overseas - never mind he's the only one on leave who was overseas.


But yes, keep up the personal insults of anyone who dares to disagree with you. I don't recall calling anyone names; just questioning their opinions, which everyone has a right to do.


But yes, you are the arbiter of what is trashy.

[Ped]

Nobody is trying to absolve him.

No one?


https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=790

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Knut

There are some Gigantic LEAPS happening here.

That's been this topic in a nut shell.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Ped

Sure, but are people maintaining innocence because people are innocent until proven guilty, or are people maintaining innocent because they love the Flames and Dube plays for the Flames?

Would the same standards apply if Dube played for the Leafs or the Oilers? I think we all know the answer to that, and that is the worst part of sports fandom.

I would hope not.

But I also don't see much evidence for this. Sure, I think people want/prefer dube to be the rumored pizza deliverer because it's a better outcome given the fandom of the board and given that we know this guy. I don't see anything wrong in hoping for the least #####y outcome when we have no concrete answers. But at the same time most can discern the probability of where its going and you can rest assured that no one will be making excuses for him if thats the case.

I'm not sure you can build a case on shaming Flames fans when no facts have come to light. Looks like you're projecting based on assumptions about how people here think so maybe you should ease up a little because right now you look like the dick more than any one.

[GullFoss]

I'm not trying to absolve him. I'm just noting that if your parse the flames statement and dubes statements and the agents statements and ask yourself "why does it read differently than the other players involved?"

This perhaps explains why. Each new bit of information makes it seem more likely than it did prior. I don't know if it's gone from 10% chance to 20% likelihood Dube is pizza guy. Or if it's gone from 20% to 99%.

I'm just noting that there's a scenario out there where one player is innocent and incremental details seem to incrembtally suggest it's plausible that player is Dube.

But if you want to live in a world of absolutes, you do that.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

I would hope not.

But I also don't see much evidence for this. Sure, I think people want/prefer dube to be the rumored pizza deliverer because it's a better outcome given the fandom of the board and given that we know this guy. I don't see anything wrong in hoping for the least #####y outcome when we have no concrete answers. But at the same time most can discern the probability of where its going and you can rest assured that no one will be making excuses for him if thats the case.

I'm not sure you can build a case on shaming Flames fans when no facts have come to light. Looks like you're projecting based on assumptions about how people here think so maybe you should ease up a little because right now you look like the dick more than any one.

Well, I guess you are the expert on being a dick.

I'm curious if there's a place the oilers could go where their fans wouldn't follow/give their endorsement?

It's already hard to respect the team for obvious reasons but if the fans want to earn the respect of their neighbors maybe they shouldn't so easily gobble up what their team is selling. There has to be a line somewhere, right? Otherwise you might as well concede to being brainwashed.

And that doesn't mean openly opposing the move (but please do if you feel compelled), but being able to admit that its not the best thing they've done.

"Other teams poked around it" isn't a valid justification for it being fine (just browse through history and see where this reasoning has been used before... yeah). The point is other teams didn't go through with it, and they all probably had more dough to throw at him than the oilers did. The oilers have been the ones to go through with these questionable signings, two of them in two calendar years, and a brutal try out offered in between them.

It's becoming a pattern at this point, this ain't no "whoopsie"
Sad to see oiler fans turning their blinders on and believing their local propaganda's BS at face value.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ped

Really? I mean, jumping to a conclusion is one thing, but looking at the actual facts that we have and seeing what makes the most sense, barring any more information, is another thing.


Where are the posts decrying Carter Hart's innocence? Where are the posts suggesting that it's likely McLeod who left the room because he was uncomfortable? Where are the posts insisting Cal Foote wasn't one of the 5? I mean we actually had someone argue that we only really "know" Alex Formenton is one of the five because he's coming from overseas - never mind he's the only one on leave who was overseas.


But yes, keep up the personal insults of anyone who dares to disagree with you. I don't recall calling anyone names; just questioning their opinions, which everyone has a right to do.


But yes, you are the arbiter of what is trashy.

You’re not questioning opinions, you’re suggesting the motive behind those opinions, and it’s a pretty #### motive to suggest at that. The fact that you think that’s less of a personal insult than calling that approach “trashy” is a reflection on you.

Maybe you can explain what exactly people are trying to absolve someone of who has yet to be charged with anything? Hell, point to one post suggesting Dube is innocent as a matter of fact that suggests the others aren’t in the same vein.

You don’t think the tone is going to change when more information comes out, regardless of what that information is?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Once more for the hard-of-reading or comprehension: the players have NOT been named as of yet, and the public has ZERO right to know.

As of today, in reality it's all speculation.

I'm sure OJ is also still out there looking for the REAL killer.

Originally Posted by devo22

I honestly wouldn't read anything into those statements at all. Every single one of those is essentially hollow, meaningless legalese.

Several of the statements were more explicit denials...and none of them are among the current 5 suspected

Cal Foote

Foote's agent Kurt Overhardt told Global News his client was not involved in the alleged sexual assault.

Alex Formenton

No statement as of Sept. 27.

Michael McLeod

"I am aware of the situation in 2018 and the investigation and I've been co-operative through the entire investigation and process, but since it's still ongoing, I'm unable to comment any further,"


Dillon Dubé

"All of CBC News' questions will be asked and answered during the pending NHL investigation. Dillon did not engage in any wrongdoing, and he co-operated fully with the independent London Police Service investigation in 2018, through which all players were then cleared of any wrongdoing.

"Naming Dillon or attempting to associate him in any way with alleged criminal wrongdoing, or alleging that he was not co-operative with the London police or was unwilling to co-operate with Hockey Canada, will constitute materially false statements constituting defamation causing serious financial and reputational harm," David Cowan, agent for Dubé wrote to CBC.

In a Sept. 23 media appearance, Dubé told a Sportsnet columnist that "I've co-operated in any way possible and will continue co-operating. I've done everything I can to co-operate."

"I will continue to do that. With it going on, I wish I could share more, but that's kind of all I can share up to this point," Dubé said.

He added to his statement the next day:

"With (the investigation) going on, I wish I could share more. But that's all I can share to this point. I would love to be transparent. I know that's all I can really say on it to be honest. For me, I wish I could tell."

It's worth noting Dubé never really denied anything. Several other players had nearly identical legalese statements:

Jake Bean, Carter Hart, Colton Point, Kale Clague, Jordan Kyrou, Taylor Raddysh

Toronto lawyer Scott Fenton wrote to Global News at the time that his firm represents one of these players and that he consulted with counsel for the other players. He declined to identify that player. He told Global:

"None of the players you reference engaged in any wrongdoing, all of the players co-operated fully with the independent London Police Service investigation in 2018, and all players were then cleared of any wrongdoing.

"Naming any of these players now, or attempting to associate any of them in any way with alleged criminal wrongdoing, or alleging that they were not co-operative with the London police or willing to co-operate with Hockey Canada will constitute materially false statements constituting defamation causing serious financial and reputational harm," Fenton wrote to Global News.

But here it gets a bit interesting. Most of the above came out with stronger denials, except for Hart and Bean:

Kale Clague

"As a member of the 2018 Canadian world junior hockey team, I feel it is important to state I was not in attendance at the Hockey Canada Gala, nor was I in London, Ontario, on the day that the incident is alleged to have occurred.

"Should my help be requested by those investigating this matter, I am fully prepared to co-operate in any way I can.

"Given the ongoing investigation I will not be providing any further comments at this time," Clague posted on Twitter.


Colton Point

"As a member of the 2018 world junior team, I first became aware of allegations made against certain members of that team back in 2019.

"At that time, I co-operated fully with the initial Hockey Canada investigation. I was not in any way involved in the alleged incident and I am prepared to co-operate with any additional investigations in the future. Given the ongoing investigations, I will not provide any further public comments," Point posted on Twitter.


Taylor Raddysh

"As a member of the 2018 world junior team, I first became aware of allegations made against certain members of that team back in 2019.

"At that time, I co-operated fully with the initial Hockey Canada investigation. I was not in any way involved in the alleged incident and I am prepared to co-operate with any additional investigations in the future.

"Given the ongoing investigations, I will not provide any further public comments," Raddysh posted on Twitter.

Jordan Kyrou

"As a member of the 2018 world junior team, I am aware of allegations made against certain members of that team.

"I want to clearly state I did not attend the Hockey Canada Gala and was not in London, Ontario, at the time of the alleged incident. I am prepared to co-operate with any additional investigations in the future if necessary.

"Given the ongoing investigations, I will not provide any further public comments," Kyrou posted on Twitter.

McLeod = no denial
Dubé = no denial
Hart = no denial
Formenton = no statement
Foote = no formal statement, just a paraphrased denial from his agent.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/players-stat...2018-1.6597503

Batheron, Bean, and Katchouk don't seem to have made specific denials.

Sam Steel's denial was a bit weak "Sam Steel did not engage in any of the misconduct that has been described in the media, and as far as I know, no one has alleged that he did so", but still stronger than any of the 8 above.

Kinda interesting that it seems to add up to 8 (or maybe 9) who were not comfortable making a denial statement personally (though perhaps some happened since the linked story).

[Ped]

Hell, point to one post suggesting Dube is innocent as a matter of fact that suggests the others aren’t in the same vein.

Sure.

Is it possible that one of the leaves announced this week (maybe...most likely the one citing mental health) isn't one of the five and that maybe it's another player?

5) He was working with law enforcement and was the one providing the most information about what happened

It certainly does absolve guilt, and would make him a key piece in the trial which no doubt would ruin his mental health, and life long reputation. It would also force him to be quite to avoid perjury which would explain while there is no comment from his agent.

[Ped]

You don’t think the tone is going to change when more information comes out, regardless of what that information is?

I certainly hope so. But this isn't particular to Flames fans - this is people. Not all, but many people will defend their "team" - whether it be sports or politics or their friends - and refuse to believe they could possibly be guilty of anything.


Would things be different right now if Dube was say, an Islander? I suspect so, not because Flames fans are not more or less reprehensible than anyone else, but because this is how we are. In all aspects of life, not just sports.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ped

Sure.

Do you know what “as a matter of fact” means?

Because running along a line of logic that says “if what that agent says is true, and what Sec says is true, then it would absolve him of guilty” it ain’t. How does that constitute an attempt to absolve him and not just stating a scenario where he would be?

The same poster said he doesn’t care who is guilty and wants them brought to justice regardless of who they are. So, who is he trying to absolve?

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Ped

Well, I guess you are the expert on being a dick.

Ah, a closet oiler fan who's bitter.

Adds up.

Show me where oiler fans drew a line in the sand with their own team and didn't just gobble up the poor decisions and even worse justifications for them in order to declare the moral high ground here. Go ahead, I'll wait..

(But not actually because I've got other things to do..)

[Ped]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Ah, a closet oiler fan who's bitter.

Adds up.

Show me where oiler fans drew a line in the sand with their own team and didn't just gobble up the poor decisions and even worse justifications for them in order to declare the moral high ground here. Go ahead, I'll wait..

(But not actually because I've got other things to do..)

Right, your go-to dig "must be an Oiler fan!" Not an Oiler fan, never have been an Oiler fan, never will be an Oiler fan, and if the OIlers lost every game from now until the end of time, I wouldn't lose a second of sleep. I don't know what Corey Perry did and I would prefer if no one signed him but I have no control over that.



But if you cant see that you're doing the same thing with Oiler fans what you are accusing anyone else of doing, then you truly have lost the plot. I mean, it's your call, but when you hate another team more than you enjoy your own, what's the point of being a sports fan? I mean, you're giving lectures on bitterness?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ped

I certainly hope so. But this isn't particular to Flames fans - this is people. Not all, but many people will defend their "team" - whether it be sports or politics or their friends - and refuse to believe they could possibly be guilty of anything.


Would things be different right now if Dube was say, an Islander? I suspect so, not because Flames fans are not more or less reprehensible than anyone else, but because this is how we are. In all aspects of life, not just sports.

There are multiple players on other teams, whose statements and lack of “personal leave” are being cited as reasons their inclusion in this is unlikely.

I think the people refusing to believe Dube could be guilty are few and far between. And that’s a lot different than discussing that he could not be, based on the limited information we have.

Five guys were called to turn themselves in. Five guys took leave. Pretty easy to just say the five and five are a match. But if the conclusion were so obvious that any suggestion otherwise is an attempt to absolve someone because of sports fandom, why aren’t even you willing to just say it’s those five guys as a matter of fact?

[TheIronMaiden]

is there also a possibility that some of the 5 are not playing pro hockey? Not everyone involved was a member of the WJC team right?