Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[FanIn80]

I mean... it's been 5 years. There's a presser on Feb. 5th.

It seems like people should be able to make it another two weeks without spinning themselves nuts over pointless speculation, no? Like, just wait for the facts.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by FBI

Does this mean Foote’s agent blatantly lied then on his twitter post saying Foote wasn’t there?

Possibly. It's also possible that Foote lied about his involvement and the agent shared what he was presented not knowing that it was a lie.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I mean... it's been 5 years. There's a presser on Feb. 5th.

It seems like people should be able to make it another two weeks without spinning themselves nuts over pointless speculation, no? Like, just wait for the facts.

Wait you’re serious let me laugh even harder dot gif

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I disagree.

The failure here is that there was a group of men who decided to commit sexual assault (allegedly). Educational messaging should tell at least one of those in the group to intervene and stop things before it became a criminal act. In my mind, this is abhorrent not because a single individual decided to rape someone, but because a group of men engaged in the act and not one of them said "hey, maybe this is a bad idea."

Messaging is not only about personal responsibility, but intervening when you see something wrong. More education WILL reduce things like this. The solitary predators may never go away, but if everyone is watching out for this #### wherever they are, those predators will lose opportunities to commit these crimes.

I mean, I think the rape is more abhorrent than someone not intervening - I know what you meant though... Also, we know this about groups of people - it is rare that someone intervenes in what they know is wrong. As an extreme example, look at Nazi Germany, people went along with it knowing it was wrong. You always hear about some lady getting mugged in a public place and everyone turning a blind eye and not intervening. Or when mobs start looting, people join in... What was Carlin's quote? Something like: "I like individual people, it's groups of them I can't stand."

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I disagree.

The failure here is that there was a group of men who decided to commit sexual assault (allegedly). Educational messaging should tell at least one of those in the group to intervene and stop things before it became a criminal act. In my mind, this is abhorrent not because a single individual decided to rape someone, but because a group of men engaged in the act and not one of them said "hey, maybe this is a bad idea."

Messaging is not only about personal responsibility, but intervening when you see something wrong. More education WILL reduce things like this. The solitary predators may never go away, but if everyone is watching out for this #### wherever they are, those predators will lose opportunities to commit these crimes.

I’d be willing to bet they’d all heard educational messaging before. From what I understand, most junior programs have sexual consent training. Reports from the incident say at one point they even asked the victim to say if she consented. So it seems pretty likely they understood that consent is necessary. But presumably they were drunk and didn’t care she wasn’t capable of giving consent due to her own drunkeness or coercion. And of course they’re steeped in a sports culture where going against the team is unthinkable.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I disagree.

The failure here is that there was a group of men who decided to commit sexual assault (allegedly). Educational messaging should tell at least one of those in the group to intervene and stop things before it became a criminal act. In my mind, this is abhorrent not because a single individual decided to rape someone, but because a group of men engaged in the act and not one of them said "hey, maybe this is a bad idea."

Messaging is not only about personal responsibility, but intervening when you see something wrong. More education WILL reduce things like this. The solitary predators may never go away, but if everyone is watching out for this #### wherever they are, those predators will lose opportunities to commit these crimes.

Yes, there are many repulsive things about this event but what you've outlined is what I find most shocking and repugnant. And it's a hell of a blackeye for hockey culture.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Why would it be naive?

Honestly, I’m not trying to argue, I truly don’t understand. Walk me through why you believe the Flames must have known charges were imminent and, if it’s because someone random (no offence to the poster) heard Dube and Hart were going to be implicated, why this was breaking news with zero public indication anywhere that charges were imminent (aside from after the fact with people saying “oh, I knew”).

I don’t see how this could be both so well known that the Flames must have known, but such a well kept secret that nobody said a word about it.

Primarily because the poster is a long standing member of this forum who I know has provided accurate information in the past. I don't want to drag anyone else into this conversation though.

HC's appeal of the panel's decision is only something that happened 2 months ago and at the time it seemed like the names were imminent - it is not surprising that these names are finally going to be released.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I disagree.

The failure here is that there was a group of men who decided to commit sexual assault (allegedly). Educational messaging should tell at least one of those in the group to intervene and stop things before it became a criminal act. In my mind, this is abhorrent not because a single individual decided to rape someone, but because a group of men engaged in the act and not one of them said "hey, maybe this is a bad idea."

Messaging is not only about personal responsibility, but intervening when you see something wrong. More education WILL reduce things like this. The solitary predators may never go away, but if everyone is watching out for this #### wherever they are, those predators will lose opportunities to commit these crimes.

Well put.

I should also like to add that education does seem to have in fact worked over time. The statistic that one in three women will experience sexual assault in her lifetime is tragically high, but it is still much, MUCH better than it has been for the vast majority of human history in most cultures, where that number is much closer to three in three women. It wasn't so long ago that it was not considered a crime for a man to force his wife to have sexual intercourse.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Well put.

I should also like to add that education does seem to have in fact worked over time. The statistic that one in three women will experience sexual assault in her lifetime is tragically high, but it is still much, MUCH better than it has been for the vast majority of human history in most cultures, where that number is much closer to three in three women. It wasn't so long ago that it was not considered a crime for a man to force his wife to have sexual intercourse.

Ah...those were the days.


(do I really have to use green text?)

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Ah...those were the days.


(do I really have to use green text?)

Honestly? You might need to.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I disagree.

The failure here is that there was a group of men who decided to commit sexual assault (allegedly). Educational messaging should tell at least one of those in the group to intervene and stop things before it became a criminal act. In my mind, this is abhorrent not because a single individual decided to rape someone, but because a group of men engaged in the act and not one of them said "hey, maybe this is a bad idea."

Messaging is not only about personal responsibility, but intervening when you see something wrong. More education WILL reduce things like this. The solitary predators may never go away, but if everyone is watching out for this #### wherever they are, those predators will lose opportunities to commit these crimes.

Do people really think that a rapist needs more educational messaging? To sit in a classroom and have an HR lady with a powerpoint presentation saying "RAPE IS BAD" to have the message come through?

The only thing that will get messaging through is harsh punishment, much harsher than we have now. The knowledge that if you're found guilty in a court of this crime that you're being imprisoned for decades. Or chemically castrated. Or executed. Instead normal people who would never commit these crimes sit in stupid seminars for something we already agree with while getting notifications from Calgary Police that some repeat sexual offender is getting released back into the community instead of executed like they should be.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’d be willing to bet they’d all heard educational messaging before. From what I understand, most junior programs have sexual consent training. Reports from the incident say at one point they even asked the victim to say if she consented. So it seems pretty likely they understood that consent is necessary. But presumably they were drunk and didn’t care she wasn’t capable of giving consent due to her own drunkeness or coercion.

Unless I'm mixing up cases they actually videoed this question. And asked over the phone or something the next day as well.

Remembering the standard of proof in criminal cases, this will end up being messy if it's clear that the acts were committed and it comes down to consent/coerced consent/lack of capacity to consent. These guys could be acquitted on the criminal standard, but at the same time clearly lacking in judgment and behaviour in the eyes of many. Then what does the league, their teams, and the PA do?

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You can teach men not to feel entitled to others’ bodies and it will still happen. We teach men they shouldn’t rob people at knife-point, and violent robberies still happen. Some people are predators who deliberately use violence or coercion to take what they want. That’s not going to change with educational messaging.

And of course we have been teaching men about consent and sexual assault for a couple decades now. I’d wager all of the hockey players who are being charged in this have had some kind of consent training.

Having said that, there’s clearly someting pretty messed up with elite men’s sport culture and its norms around entitlement and sexual aggression. If anything good comes of this, it will be that it serves as a sobering lesson to younger hockey players that this kind of predatory pursuit of drunken women can ruin lives.

You're right. Let's just give up. Nothing that can be done.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

Things I like:

Empathy for the victims. Recognizing that people have been seriously hurt, and helping them heal. Recognizing that our society needs to change systemic misogynistic values, or else these behaviours will continue in the future. Opening up more conversations about consent; more conversations about teaching young boys about respecting girls.

Things I don't like:

Anger! Rage! ####ty people are the worst! Let's punish all ####ty people! Vengeful Righteousness!

Things I dont like? For a moment lets put the crime aside.

But youth sports is supposed to be wholesome.

Its supposed to unite communities, bring people together for their favourite sport, teach kids teamwork and understanding of different individuals and, hell, at some point maybe even different cultures.

And what have we done with it? We've created lunatic sex monsters.

Its like...if you think you just cant get lower on society...hockey just told you to hold their beer.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Do people really think that a rapist needs more educational messaging? To sit in a classroom and have an HR lady with a powerpoint presentation saying "RAPE IS BAD" to have the message come through?

The only thing that will get messaging through is harsh punishment, much harsher than we have now. The knowledge that if you're found guilty in a court of this crime that you're being imprisoned for decades. Or chemically castrated. Or executed. Instead normal people who would never commit these crimes sit in stupid seminars for something we already agree with while getting notifications from Calgary Police that some repeat sexual offender is getting released back into the community instead of executed like they should be.

Haha...holy ####. That's some medieval stuff right there.

Look, we already know that the death penalty doesn't deter murder rates, so why would these sorts of punishments deter sexual assault?

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

London police investigated a complaint by the victim in February 2019. The lawsuit came in 2022. Hard to fathom that the investigation was closed so quickly considering the seriousness of the allegation, the number of potential witnesses and persons of interest concerned and the amount of relevant potential evidence.

The cops in 19 likely felt similar to a lot of folks in this read.

[stang]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I think we need to keep the pitchforks at bay here until we know more. Dragging everybody through the mud when we have so little details isn't fair.

Go to the Perry thread

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Ah...those were the days.


(do I really have to use green text?)

Maybe not the time to make SA jokes

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Do people really think that a rapist needs more educational messaging? To sit in a classroom and have an HR lady with a powerpoint presentation saying "RAPE IS BAD" to have the message come through?

The only thing that will get messaging through is harsh punishment, much harsher than we have now. The knowledge that if you're found guilty in a court of this crime that you're being imprisoned for decades. Or chemically castrated. Or executed. Instead normal people who would never commit these crimes sit in stupid seminars for something we already agree with while getting notifications from Calgary Police that some repeat sexual offender is getting released back into the community instead of executed like they should be.

Does this actually work?

If it did, one would think that in the nation where they have the highest rate of incarceration, they would also have the lowest crime rates. One would be forgiven for thinking that in this same nation where they still regularly implement the death penalty for murder that they also have the lowest murder rates.

No? Maybe the solution is just a tad more nuanced? Perhaps?

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Locke

Things I dont like? For a moment lets put the crime aside.

But youth sports is supposed to be wholesome.

Its supposed to unite communities, bring people together for their favourite sport, teach kids teamwork and understanding of different individuals and, hell, at some point maybe even different cultures.

And what have we done with it? We've created lunatic sex monsters.

Its like...if you think you just cant get lower on society...hockey just told you to hold their beer.

It’s not just hockey. It’s all sports. Look to the states for major coverups in football for example. Athletes always get the benefit of any doubt for the silly assertion they play a sport and they’re special. Sports are fun to play and watch. But athlete and celebrity worship is so silly. They’re among the shallowest people around.

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Well ####ing said

We raised our kids to understand they could say no to hugging Aunt Sue, without repercussions.

And yes I’ve had to say to Sue “sorry it’s their right, this isn’t about you”

Yes, we have three boys and it starts early. We have many conversations about consent even at this age, how you don't touch people or ask for hugs if they say they don't want you to, and that nobody is allowed to touch you if you don't want them to either.

People sometimes say "Oh yeah, boys, at least you won't have to worry about them when they're out and about" -- and like, yes, but there's also the element of raising them and teaching them to be the type of man that other people don't have to worry about. As a parent, I'd be just as devastated to hear one of my boys was the perpetrator in one of these crimes as much as they were the victim.