Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

I'm sure some of the deaths are. Here's a quote from a survivor of the music festival:


"Finally, IDF soldiers approached us, but they thought we were terrorists and began shooting. We yelled that we were Israelis and they stopped. In the end, an army helicopter came to take away the wounded," Adi said.


https://nationalpost.com/news/surviv...music-festival


We already know the IDF killed hostages so it wouldn't be surprising that they've killed more Israelis.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Has this been suggested anywhere else?
This is the first link I'm seeing where someone is suggesting many of the Israeli deaths on Oct 7th were at the hands of the IDF.
He goes as far as saying the deaths at the music festival were largely due to helicopter's firing down on everyone.

That's a pretty massive claim, would like to see if there's some evidence there beyond just this tweet interview.

EDIT: source site seems to be conspiracy and nonsense. Please disregard as fantasy unless proven otherwise. Sorry for the ####ty source.

I did a little looking on this, and found this piece that kinda confirms some of these things.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/octobe...ssiles/5838408

I assume we'll never know how many, but clearly the IDF is responsible for more than zero, and are not being careful to avoid civilian deaths in their retaliation, even Israeli civilians and hostages.

[Bagor]

The Genocide continues. Refusing to allow humanitarian aid to enter.

WHO chief calls on Israel to provide access for humanitarian aid in Gaza
In a press conference, the World Health Organization (WHO) director general, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, has said there are nearly “insurmountable obstacles” to delivering humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip, saying the situation was “indescribable”.

He said six planned missions to northern Gaza had been cancelled because Israel had rejected requests and not given assurances of safe passage, adding that a mission planned for today had also had to be cancelled.

He said: "Intense bombardment, restrictions on movement, a fuel shortage and interrupted communications make it impossible for WHO and our partners to reach those in need.

We have the supplies, the teams and the plans in place. What we don’t have is access."

WHO has had to cancel six planned missions to northern Gaza since 26 December, when we had our last mission, because our requests were rejected, and assurances of safe passage were not provided.

A mission planned for today has also been cancelled.

The barrier to delivering humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza is not the capabilities of the UN, WHO, or our partners. The barrier is access.

We call on Israel to approve requests by WHO and other partners to deliver humanitarian aid.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...uk-iran-rebels

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I did a little looking on this, and found this piece that kinda confirms some of these things.


https://www.globalresearch.ca/octobe...ssiles/5838408


I assume we'll never know how many, but clearly the IDF is responsible for more than zero, and are not being careful to avoid civilian deaths in their retaliation, even Israeli civilians and hostages.

Holy sh*t thats wild. I had no idea.

As the wave of infiltrations from Gaza drove chaos on the ground, discombobulated Israeli pilots unleashed a frenzy of missile and machine gun salvos: “The Apache pilots testify that they fired a huge amount of munitions, emptied the ‘belly of the helicopter’ in minutes, flew to re-arm and returned to the air, again and again. But it didn’t help and they understand it,” Mako reported.

The Apache helicopters appear to have focused on vehicles streaming back into Gaza from the Nova electronic music festival and nearby kibbutzes, attacked cars with apparent knowledge that Israeli captives could be inside. They also fired on unarmed people exiting cars or walking on foot through the fields on the periphery of Gaza.

Yasmin Porat, an attendee of the Nova music festival who fled into Kibbutz Be’eri, told Israeli Radio that when Israeli special forces arrived during a hostage standoff,

“They eliminated everyone, including the hostages because there was very, very heavy crossfire.”

“After insane crossfire,” Porat continued, “two tank shells were shot into the house. It’s a small kibbutz house, nothing big.”

A video posted by the Telegram account of Israel’s South Responders shows the bodies of Israelis discovered below the rubble of a home destroyed by a powerful explosive blast – likely a tank shell. The right-wing New York Post ran a report on a similar incident about a boy’s body found scorched beneath the ruins of his home in Be’eri.

The phenomenon of charred corpses whose hands and ankles had been tied, and who were found in groups beneath the rubble of destroyed homes, also raises questions about “friendly” tank fire.

Just goes to show just how off guard the IDF was... They did not have a handle on this thing and clearly did not have rules of engagement nor structure of command.

[Fuzz]

It's gotta be an intelligence failure on a greater scale than 9/11. Wild they had no idea. Or did they?

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think 2500 heavily armed men in a densely populated setting can do a hell of a lot more damage than 400ish civilians if they avoid military personnel.

I also think that if Hamas' goal is simply to kill jews, there are more effective ways to do so than what happened on October 7.

I don’t know where you are getting your number from, but I believe there were more than 800 civilians killed on Oct 7th.

You didn’t answer the question though, if the goal wasn’t simply to kill Jews, what was the goal?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

You didn’t answer the question though, if the goal wasn’t simply to kill Jews, what was the goal?

Eroding Israel's long-term security by goading them into a disproportionate response that will weaken their regional and international support. Maybe the foot soldiers weren't thinking in those terms, but I imagine that was Hamas' broader goal.

[Johnny Makarov]

I think I finally found the answer.

Take .000000001% of AR 15s out of the US and give them to every Palestinian citizen so they can take care of Hamas themselves.

Just call me Jared Kushner!

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think 2500 heavily armed men in a densely populated setting can do a hell of a lot more damage than 400ish civilians if they avoid military personnel.

I also think that if Hamas' goal is simply to kill jews, there are more effective ways to do so than what happened on October 7.

Do you paratroop into a music festival to take down military targets? It seems they clearly wanted to take out both IDF and Israeli citizens.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I don’t know where you are getting your number from, but I believe there were more than 800 civilians killed on Oct 7th.

You didn’t answer the question though, if the goal wasn’t simply to kill Jews, what was the goal?

Israeli numbers cited in multiple outlets like the Guardian:

The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.

It is unhelpful that news outlets routinely continue to cite 1200 as the figure when the above numbers have been out for a while.

Also, and not to speak for Q, but I expect their main objectives with regard to the civilians was actually to take hostages. If the math were ever done, we might end up finding similar numbers of military and civilians were killed by Hamas. The number of children killed may also be telling of Hamas' main objectives.

I don't think the full story of October 7 is told yet, and likely won't be for a long time.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Eroding Israel's long-term security by goading them into a disproportionate response that will weaken their regional and international support. Maybe the foot soldiers weren't thinking in those terms, but I imagine that was Hamas' broader goal.

This article goes into the motives a bit, it's from November but worth a read to understand the thinking of Hamas a bit better.

But the frustration was building. Hamas leaders in Gaza were flooded with images of Israeli settlers attacking Palestinians in the West Bank, Jews openly praying at a contested site customarily reserved for Muslims, and the Israeli police storming the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, a touchstone for Palestinian claims to the holy city. The prospect of Israel’s normalizing ties with Saudi Arabia, long a deep-pocketed patron of the Palestinian cause, appeared closer than ever.

While building the capabilities for the assault took years, the decision to launch it on Oct. 7 was a secret closely guarded by a small number of Hamas leaders in Gaza who did not even inform those taking part until the last minute to prevent interception by regional intelligence services, according to Hamas and regional officials.

A key objective was to take as many Israeli soldiers captive as possible for use in a prisoner swap, according to two Arab officials whose governments talk to Hamas.

One regional security official said Hamas had expected that, once the attack began, Palestinians elsewhere would rise up against Israel, other Arab populations would explode against their governments and the group’s regional allies, including Hezbollah, would join the fight.

But at least four intelligence services — two Arab and two European — have assessed that Hezbollah had no advance knowledge of the attack, according to officials with access to intelligence reports.

Hamas’s own political leaders outside Gaza were also surprised by the assault, according to several Arab and Western officials who track their movements.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/w...-gaza-war.html

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I don’t know where you are getting your number from, but I believe there were more than 800 civilians killed on Oct 7th.

You didn’t answer the question though, if the goal wasn’t simply to kill Jews, what was the goal?

Yes, and not all were killed by Hamas.

I don't know what Hamas' motives were, but you would think their goal for October 7 would be something more practical and less cartoonishly evil than "kill all jews". My guess is.
1) Deal a blow to Israel's perception of security.
2) Capture high value hostages and use them as leverage in negotiations.
3) Draw Israel in to a ground war where Hamas has home ice advantage in the hopes that Israel would be militarily defeated.
4) Hope that Israel acts as ruthlessly as they normally do in order to turn public opinion against them.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Yes, and not all were killed by Hamas.

I don't know what Hamas' motives were, but you would think their goal for October 7 would be something more practical and less cartoonishly evil than "kill all jews". My guess is.
1) Deal a blow to Israel's perception of security.
2) Capture high value hostages and use them as leverage in negotiations.
3) Draw Israel in to a ground war where Hamas has home ice advantage in the hopes that Israel would be militarily defeated.
4) Hope that Israel acts as ruthlessly as they normally do in order to turn public opinion against them.

Yeah, guys. It wasn't Kill all Jews! It was just kill as many a possible in the time period they had before the response overwhelmed them! Not that evil, totally tactically sound!
I'm trying to stay out of this, but that post was horse #### and you know it.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Yeah, guys. It wasn't Kill all Jews! It was just kill as many a possible in the time period they had before the response overwhelmed them! Not that evil, totally tactically sound!
I'm trying to stay out of this, but that post was horse #### and you know it.

With all due respect, do you have any proof of this claim?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Let's think about this for a minute.

If their goal was simply to kill as many jews as possible, would they have targeted 300+ military personnel on October 7? Wouldn't it have been more effective to avoid people that can shoot back and just gone after soft targets such as schools, malls, etc?

Dumb comment, they killed soldiers to get thru the fence and para-trooped to the soft targets.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by _Q_

With all due respect, do you have any proof of this claim?

You just put this forward. This was your theory. Their goal wasn't to kill all the Jews, just to try and sow chaos that destabilized Israeli life and incur a response by killing as many as they could in a set time frame before the response killed them. You put this forth like it's in some way better than simply "Kill all jews"


With no due respect to you after this interaction. Be better. You know your post was garbage and if you don't you're not someone I want to interact with anymore.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

You just put this forward. This was your theory. Their goal wasn't to kill all the Jews, just to try and sow chaos that destabilized Israeli life and incur a response by killing as many as they could in a set time frame before the response killed them. You put this forth like it's in some way better than simply "Kill all jews"


With no due respect to you after this interaction. Be better. You know your post was garbage and if you don't you're not someone I want to interact with anymore.

No, my post was not garbage. You have a wonderful day.

[Bagor]

On the eve of their Genocide trial at the ICJ Netanyahu releases a tweet in English stating that Israel has no intention of permanently occupying Gaza or displacing civilian population.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1745186120109846710

Might have wanted to have checked in with his buddies before saying that.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s two senior far-right partners endorsed the rebuilding of settlements in the Gaza Strip and the encouraging of “voluntary emigration” of Palestinians on Monday, while hawkish opposition MK Avigdor Liberman called for Israel to reoccupy southern Lebanon.

Speaking during their parties’ respective faction meetings in the Knesset, National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich presented the migration of Palestinian civilians as a solution to the long-running conflict and as a prerequisite for securing the stability necessary to allow residents of southern Israel to return to their homes.

The war presents an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” Ben Gvir told reporters and members of his far-right Otzma Yehudit party, calling such a policy “a correct, just, moral and humane solution.”

“We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” he said.

The “correct solution” to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict is “to encourage the voluntary migration of Gaza’s residents to countries that will agree to take in the refugees,” Smotrich told members of his Religious Zionism party, predicting that “Israel will permanently control the territory of the Gaza Strip,” including through the establishment of settlements.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/minist...ents-in-strip/

"correct solution" for Gazans is "voluntary migration". Nearly as if Afc Wimbledon was writing their script

[afc wimbledon]

Oh I never said it was 'correct', morally it sucks for Palestinians, I just suspect life outside of Gaza for a young Palestinians for the next 50 to 100 years, maybe 300 or 500, say in Montreal or Hounslow, will be immeasurably better than in Gaza.

Israel doesn't care what the world thinks, never has, the US will support them no matter what they do, so Israel isnt giving up anything and no one can make them, there is no pathway for Palestinians to change their circumstance, they have no power.

The rest of the Arab world doesn't actually give a tinkers about Palestinians either, they are just pawns to keep their plebs in check, right now Israel is destroying Gaza, killing tens of thousands, what is Hezbollahs official position? deputy leader Naim Qassem, in a televised speech, said his group did not want to expand the war from Lebanon, "but if Israel expands (it), the response is inevitable to the maximum extent required to deter Israel" basically they dont actually give a toss, Gaza is on its own, and if Gaza is on its own for this Israel can do anything it wants, Iran isn't going to do a thing.


There is nothing for Palestinians to look forward to in Gaza or the West Bank but generations and generations of pain, oppression, anger and poverty, on the other hand my kids neighbors who come from Palestine via Jordan have an immeasurably better life here, their kids are safe and come play GTA and Fortnite with my guys, no one shoots them and they have a future.

I guess the question is do we care about Palestinians as individual people, want what is best for them or are we happier for them to die to further some sort of edge lord post colonial left wing agenda where we wear our Che t shirts and keffiyahs and but dont give a tinkers about them as humans

What we want, what is fair or moral will make no difference to Gaza's future, what will decide Gaza's and Palestine's future is what Israel wants because they are utterly in charge and that doesnt seem likely to change for 50 to 100 years, it therefore seems cruel to not offer Gazans an escape, at least some hope for a better life, is that morally crappy, does it feel like it's handing the very worst of right wing zionist politicians everything they want? of course but how else do we give Gazan kids a chance to have what our kids have?

If you or anyone else have some kind of a solution I'm all ears, but saying 'well Israel should' isn't a solution because Israel isnt going to do anything it doesnt feel like, Israel is the only side that has any power and isnt going to do anything unless it wants to

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Yes, and not all were killed by Hamas.

I don't know what Hamas' motives were, but you would think their goal for October 7 would be something more practical and less cartoonishly evil than "kill all jews". My guess is.
1) Deal a blow to Israel's perception of security.
2) Capture high value hostages and use them as leverage in negotiations.
3) Draw Israel in to a ground war where Hamas has home ice advantage in the hopes that Israel would be militarily defeated.
4) Hope that Israel acts as ruthlessly as they normally do in order to turn public opinion against them.

Hamas are jihadists. Religious fanatics. Their founding documents and ongoing propaganda are full of religious text and imagery. Their aims are religious. Their motivations are religious. The Oct 7 attackers filmed themselves shouting “God is Great!” as they carried out their atrocities. The Palestinians who passed around the bloody corpses of women slain in the attacks were shouting “God is Great!” as they rejoiced.

I suppose it’s difficult for people who aren’t religious fanatics to imagine the thought process of people who are. This seems to be especially true of foreign movements. If a group of Christian fundamentalists in Alberta wrote a founding charter full of litany from the Book of Revelations, promised to bring on the End Times in a bloodbath, and shouted “Judgement day is upon you!“ as they gunned people down in the street, would Canadians be attributing subtle (and often sympathetic) political agendas to them?