Israel declares war on Hamas

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I haven't been in here in forever.

Did he misrepresent you? Do you find the death toll of civilians unacceptable? If you do, does that mean you think Israel's tactics are not going far enough to protect civilians?

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Yes. You can search through the thread if you want.

But that's not really the point. Rather than addressing what I said with honesty he essentially says "I know you are but what am I". There's too much of that here as it drowns out those that want to participate in an honest conversation.

Okay, assignment accepted. I went through the thread and read your posts. A lot were reasonable, but not all IMO. I think this post, in particular, seems to argue that the civilian casualties are not unacceptable. You specifically say if Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties in Gaza it "will lead to the death of Israel civilians and likely the destruction of Israel."

You seem to be in favour of "wiping out Hamas now" as you think it "will probably prevent more civilian casualties in the future," but I'd say your argument falls short of wanting Israel to prevent civilian deaths since you say: "I hope that they somehow manage to get the civilians out of Gaza but that's not an easy task either as Hamas shields themselves with civilians, even if they're refugees." Also, is it just Israeli civilians you are trying to prevent in the future, or all civilian deaths in the area? Because if your goal is to prevent all civilian deaths then Israel is doing a piss-poor job of that.

This really sounds like you don't want civilians to die, but you're fine with it as long as they get Hamas members as well. You are also unwilling to tell us how many civilian deaths are too many.

Am I reading you wrong here? This is your post, FTR:

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Yes, but it's basically damned if you do, damned if you don't. So, Israel now has the following choice, either:

1-avoid all civilian causalities in Gaza- Unfortunately, Hamas is imbedded in the civilian infrastructure including hospitals and schools and it's part of their strategy to us these people as shields. Some would argue they want to use them as martyrs for their cause. This would likely result in Israel being in a complete defensive position where all they can try to do is repel additional attacks from Hamas. But of course, some of their neighbors, being what they are, will likely take advantage of this passive approach and also attack Israel. This will lead to the death of Israel civilians and likely the destruction of Israel.

2-defend themselves- This will mean Gazan civilian deaths. If they go this route one would hope that they would minimize civilian casualties as much as possible. But how possible is that when their enemy wants their own (and Israelis civilians) to die in this conflict.

On a few occasions, Pepsi has asked what is the right number of civilian casualties. That question is impossible to answer. But I would suggest that wiping out Hamas now will probably prevent more civilian casualties in the future. I hope that they somehow manage to get the civilians out of Gaza but that's not an easy task either as Hamas shields themselves with civilians, even if they're refugees.

Civilians are going to die in large numbers one way or another. It's a sad, somber reality that is inescapable. The same is unfortunately true in any war: bombing of London, bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima/Nagasaki are a few dark examples. War is hell, but make no mistake, this is what Hamas wanted.

Also, when going through your posts I realized you were the guy who edited a post of mine you quoted to change its meaning. That was crazy and demonstrated a total disregard for an honest discussion:

Originally Posted by Sliver

Are you joking around with me? I said they should assassinate the entire Hamas leadership regardless of the country in which those leaders reside. I'm in favour of totally breaking international law and pretending I didn't see jack squat while Mossad agents go around killing Hamas members in any country on the planet.

Turn the other cheek? Fk that. Kill those responsible.

Yeah, go back and read my post. I'm not even going to go on lol.

Edit: Ack, hang tight dude. I don't think my post you quoted says what I said it says. Gimme one sec. Nobody freak out yet.

New edit. JFC, Red Slinger. You literally snipped out the part of my post I thought I had written. WTF, dude?

Please don't do that again.

IDK, after reading your posts I definitely agree you have some nuance in your position and I don't think you're a bloodthirsty kill-all-Palestinians kind of guy; however, you absolutely seem to have given Israel a pass on killing Palestinian civilians to avenge October 7 in a way that seems inconsistent with how you value the lives of Israel civilians. In other words, when I read your posts I think you believe Palestinians civilians are more expendable than Israeli civilians.

I'm also willing to acknowledge your views could have evolved away from that post I quoted, so if you walk that back some I certainly wouldn't hold it against you.

[Red Slinger]

So, I stated this in response to a few of the recent posts in this thread that are making it relatively unreadable.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Good faith discussion in this thread is few and far between. It's mostly people taking a side and defending that side, usually by way of deflection and whataboutisms.

Originally Posted by Bagor

No I didn't.



NO-ONE in this thread has tried to paint Hamas as victims yet you tried to imply they were.

That or you consider the civilians of Gaza to equate to Hamas. The one and same.

You were questioned on this for clarification but you disappeared.

But you just carry on with your self righteous lecturing about arguing in good faith.

You have this habit of putting words in other peoples mouths. I didn't imply anything about all Palestinians being Hamas. I said people are staking a claim on one side or another and then arguing almost exclusively in favour of that side with little or no nuance. You, for instance, seem to argue that Israel is evil and they are clearly the bad guys. I happen to think that they are one of the bad guys in this mess, along with Hamas, some Palestinians, the government of Iran, the government of USA, the government of Russia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Hezbollah and Qatar (and likely more). So, yes, I think YOU (and several others that are largely monopolizing this thread) are arguing in bad faith by painting one side as bad and the other as victims.

I don't know what you're referring to regarding the clarification you asked for. I don't recall seeing it but even if I did what I owe you for an explanation falls between jack and squat. You like to 'demand' answers from others but tend to refrain answering direct questions when they're posed back to you. So, if you want to stop the self-righteous behavior in this thread, maybe start by talking to the guy in the mirror.

Originally Posted by Sliver

Okay, assignment accepted. I went through the thread and read your posts. A lot were reasonable, but not all IMO. I think this post, in particular, seems to argue that the civilian casualties are not unacceptable. You specifically say if Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties in Gaza it "will lead to the death of Israel civilians and likely the destruction of Israel."

You seem to be in favour of "wiping out Hamas now" as you think it "will probably prevent more civilian casualties in the future," but I'd say your argument falls short of wanting Israel to prevent civilian deaths since you say: "I hope that they somehow manage to get the civilians out of Gaza but that's not an easy task either as Hamas shields themselves with civilians, even if they're refugees." Also, is it just Israeli civilians you are trying to prevent in the future, or all civilian deaths in the area? Because if your goal is to prevent all civilian deaths then Israel is doing a piss-poor job of that.

This really sounds like you don't want civilians to die, but you're fine with it as long as they get Hamas members as well. You are also unwilling to tell us how many civilian deaths are too many.

I'm not 'fine' with civilians deaths but I recognize that it is a necessary evil in any conflict. I think I stated as much.

Am I reading you wrong here? This is your post, FTR:

Also, when going through your posts I realized you were the guy who edited a post of mine you quoted to change its meaning. That was crazy and demonstrated a total disregard for an honest discussion:

Yes, I didn't quote your entire post. People do that sometimes. I was responding to a certain thing you said. I didn't realize I was breaking an internet rule about only responding to part of your post.

IDK, after reading your posts I definitely agree you have some nuance in your position and I don't think you're a bloodthirsty kill-all-Palestinians kind of guy; however, you absolutely seem to have given Israel a pass on killing Palestinian civilians to avenge October 7 in a way that seems inconsistent with how you value the lives of Israel civilians. In other words, when I read your posts I think you believe Palestinians civilians are more expendable than Israeli civilians.

I appreciate the concern you have regarding my views. The only reason we got here is because someone said I don't care about Palestinian civilians dying in the conflict, which I think I've demonstrated is inaccurate. In any case, this thread shouldn't be about me and I'm sorry for those who are unfortunately reading this to be subjected to this silliness.

I'm also willing to acknowledge your views could have evolved away from that post I quoted, so if you walk that back some I certainly wouldn't hold it against you.

Of course my view has evolved. As the conflict has evolved and Israel's bombing has become more indiscriminate, my view has adjusted accordingly.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

You have this habit of putting words in other peoples mouths. I didn't imply anything about all Palestinians being Hamas. I said people are staking a claim on one side or another and then arguing almost exclusively in favour of that side with little or no nuance. You, for instance, seem to argue that Israel is evil and they are clearly the bad guys. I happen to think that they are one of the bad guys in this mess, along with Hamas, some Palestinians, the government of Iran, the government of USA, the government of Russia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Hezbollah and Qatar (and likely more). So, yes, I think YOU (and several others that are largely monopolizing this thread) are arguing in bad faith by painting one side as bad and the other as victims.

I don't know what you're referring to regarding the clarification you asked for. I don't recall seeing it but even if I did what I owe you for an explanation falls between jack and squat. You like to 'demand' answers from others but tend to refrain answering direct questions when they're posed back to you. So, if you want to stop the self-righteous behavior in this thread, maybe start by talking to the guy in the mirror.

Listen to your hypocritical self. You seem to think that you are the sole person here that thinks Israel is ONE of the bad guys when everyone in this thread without exception is in agreement that Hamas is evil.

NO-ONE is taking the side of Hamas. What part of that don't you understand? People are however taking the side of the innocent civilians being slaughtered and maimed by indiscriminate bombing.

You fail to comprehend that there are more than two sides in this conflict. Israel, Hamas and the innocent civilians of Gaza including thousands of dead and maimed infants and children.

Your brain can't seem to process that being disgusted at Israel's actions does not equate to support for Hamas. That being supportive or sympathetic to the slaughter, maiming, displacement, starvation of the Gazan people does not equate to support for Hamas.

You talk about putting words in people's mouths yet you accuse me of saying "one side being bad and the other being victims" in a dishonest attempt to label me a Hamas sympathiser. Where have I stated or implied that Hamas are victims here? You simply can't differentiate between Hamas and civilians?

Carry on Mr I just want an honest conversation. It's noteworthy that you jumped into this when blankall's seven lies were being challenged. You didn't appear to have any issue with them or their lack of "honesty". But when the lies were highlighted and challenged, that's the bit that seems to upset your selectively moral self.

[Azure]

There thread is a lot like the protests being taken over by people blocking roads, airports, etc.

Basically hijacked by people with an extremely slanted view on the entire ordeal, leaving little room for actual discussion or in that sense proper protest.

My way or the highway type deal.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Of course my view has evolved. As the conflict has evolved and Israel's bombing has become more indiscriminate, my view has adjusted accordingly.

k, well that would have saved me a fk ton of time reading your posts in this thread - as you asked me to do - when you could have just stated your new and improved opinion. lol, who answers a question with "read my past posts" only to have those past posts brought up and then says "yeah, I don't think that anymore"?

Anyway, glad to know you now believe the indiscriminate bombing of civilians is not okay.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Azure

There thread is a lot like the protests being taken over by people blocking roads, airports, etc.

Basically hijacked by people with an extremely slanted view on the entire ordeal, leaving little room for actual discussion or in that sense proper protest.

My way or the highway type deal.

Can you clarify this a bit? I feel one "side" has consistently said the following:

• Hamas are terrorists and the attack on October 7 was evil
• Israel has the right to capture or kill Hamas leadership and members
• Israel does not have the right to kill, starve, displace or endanger civilians

Like, that's pretty much the extent of it.

I'd say the other "side" has been twisting themselves into pretzels trying to:

• Conflate Hamas members with Palestinians
• Justify the killing of civilians
• Muddy the waters by deliberately confusing Israel (the country) with Judaism (the religion)

[Azure]

Literally your post.

On one hand arguing that Israel has the right to eliminate Hamas, but then trying to dictate how they should do it.

Hamas is extremely embedded into Gaza. They use civilians as human shields, setup operations in hospitals, launch rockets from civilian populations, etc, etc. There is no way to eliminate Hamas, which you supposedly agree with, without pretty much doing what Israel is doing.

"Not have the right to endanger civilians."

Again, either you agree with eliminating Hamas, or you don't. If you don't think Israel shouldn't endanger civilians, when Hamas literally uses them as human shields, then you don't actually agree that Israel has the right to eliminate Hamas.

Which is fine. Maybe there are other solutions than what Israel is doing. I personally think the first thing that needs to be done is to follow the aid money going in Gaza, which Hamas is stealing and using to launch operations against Israel which just continues the cycle. All the military might in the world isn't much help if once the military operations are done, the cycle will just continue once again.

But if anyone is muddying the water, it is literally you.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Azure

Basically hijacked by people with an extremely slanted view on the entire ordeal, leaving little room for actual discussion or in that sense proper protest.

My way or the highway type deal.

Originally Posted by Azure

Again, either you agree with eliminating Hamas, or you don't. If you don't think Israel shouldn't endanger civilians, when Hamas literally uses them as human shields, then you don't actually agree that Israel has the right to eliminate Hamas.

…

But if anyone is muddying the water, it is literally you.

Man, I live for self owns as hard as this.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Is Hamas' explicit goal really to kill all jews? If so, what makes you believe that's the case?

I absolutely believe it to be true and it frightens the hell out of me. And I take the mullahs in Iran at their word when they say they want to wipe out Israel.

There is reporting today that only 70 or so Hamas fighters that infiltrated Israel on October 7 were hard core terrorists that had been trained for years. Apparently the remaining 2,500 or so murderers who committed the atrocities were recent recruits and ordinary citizens of Gaza. Which leads me to believe that a lot more than just Hamas want to exterminate Jews.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I see this argument a lot from the pro-genocide crowd.

The ‘pro-genocide crowd’? Good to see people willing to discuss this subject rationally and in good faith.

I also had a chuckle at the credibility of an article being dismissed out of hand by a poster because it was written by a Jew. And not a word from the people who deny anti-semitism is at work here.

Originally Posted by _Q_

Is Hamas' explicit goal really to kill all jews?

Their own founding covenant sure makes it seem that way.

The covenant opens with a message that precisely encapsulates Hamas’s master plan. Quoting Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is a constituent member (Article 2), the document proclaims, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

Lest there be any doubt about Hamas’s sanguinary aims toward Israel and the Jewish people, the introduction goes on to explain:

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious … It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps.

After some general explanatory language about Hamas’s religious foundation and noble intentions, the covenant comes to the Islamic Resistance Movement’s raison d’être: the slaughter of Jews. “The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...nocide/675602/

Hamas are a fanatical jihadist movement. Apocalyptic visions of the world being cleansed of its enemies are baked into the cause.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I absolutely believe it to be true and it frightens the hell out of me. And I take the mullahs in Iran at their word when they say they want to wipe out Israel.

There is reporting today that only 70 or so Hamas fighters that infiltrated Israel on October 7 were hard core terrorists that had been trained for years. Apparently the remaining 2,500 or so murderers who committed the atrocities were recent recruits and ordinary citizens of Gaza. Which leads me to believe that a lot more than just Hamas want to exterminate Jews.

Wow wow wow. That is a very huge claim which requires back-up and support.

You are suggesting that over 97% of the perpetrators of the attack were ordinary citizens of Gaza or recruits plucked off the street (ie. the average Palestinian)? That would be shocking.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I also had a chuckle at the credibility of an article being dismissed out of hand by a poster because it was written by a Jew. And not a word from the people who deny anti-semitism is at work here.

LOL! No shame at all in playing the antisemitism card.

Pointing out that the author of an opinion piece is Jewish which might imply bias is now antisemitism. Shame on you.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Wow wow wow. That is a very huge claim which requires back-up and support.

You are suggesting that over 97% of the perpetrators of the attack were ordinary citizens of Gaza or recruits plucked off the street (ie. the average Palestinian)? That would be shocking.

That would be a shockingly high number in my eyes as well. There is no doubt that some Palestinian citizens support Hamas, I mean, even in Canada there are “death to Jews” chants.

Conversely, I’m also sure that some citizens of Israel support violence against Palestinian citizens.

The percentage of both of these would be interesting to know.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Sliver

k, well that would have saved me a fk ton of time reading your posts in this thread - as you asked me to do - when you could have just stated your new and improved opinion. lol, who answers a question with "read my past posts" only to have those past posts brought up and then says "yeah, I don't think that anymore"?

I didn't ask you to do anything. I said you can read them if you want evidence of where I stand, which you then chose to do. I said "you can search the thread if you want". So, you could have saved yourself (and me) a fk ton of time by taking my word for it and then not acting like the victim.

Anyway, glad to know you now believe the indiscriminate bombing of civilians is not okay.

Sorry, what do you mean 'now'? While my position has evolved as the facts of the conflict have evolved, I have never supported killing civilians. Only a fool or hyper-partisan doesn't change their opinion over time (which is part of my initial complaint). Again, I wish no civilians were killed. I wish that this conflict didn't start. I wish there were no Israeli settlements in the West Bank. I wish there wasn't a death cult governing Gaza and supported by several nations. There are lots of things I wish weren't the case, including the death of innocents. I wish it was two armies lining up across each other and settling things, but I'm not familiar with any war where civilians didn't die. Particularly when part of the strategy of at least one participant is to maximize civilian deaths on both sides. Where my view has changed is that Israel went from mostly targeting Hamas targets to mostly bombing indiscriminately. Israel should be taking more care in their assault. But let's not forget that Hamas has never stopped (other than a short cease fire) launching indiscriminate missile attacks on Israeli civilians. Yes, Israel should be held to a higher standard but not an impossible standard.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Wow wow wow. That is a very huge claim which requires back-up and support.

You are suggesting that over 97% of the perpetrators of the attack were ordinary citizens of Gaza or recruits plucked off the street (ie. the average Palestinian)? That would be shocking.

Agreed. I heard the story on i24 News last evening claiming a source from Hamas.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I absolutely believe it to be true and it frightens the hell out of me. And I take the mullahs in Iran at their word when they say they want to wipe out Israel.

There is reporting today that only 70 or so Hamas fighters that infiltrated Israel on October 7 were hard core terrorists that had been trained for years. Apparently the remaining 2,500 or so murderers who committed the atrocities were recent recruits and ordinary citizens of Gaza. Which leads me to believe that a lot more than just Hamas want to exterminate Jews.

Let's think about this for a minute.

If their goal was simply to kill as many jews as possible, would they have targeted 300+ military personnel on October 7? Wouldn't it have been more effective to avoid people that can shoot back and just gone after soft targets such as schools, malls, etc?

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Their own founding covenant sure makes it seem that way.



Hamas are a fanatical jihadist movement. Apocalyptic visions of the world being cleansed of its enemies are baked into the cause.

Is this from their 80s charter? Why is that more valid than the updated version from 2017?

16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.

Further to that, they don't really call for the complete destruction of Israel either.

20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

You can read the entire document here:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...s-and-policies

Crisis inflation is the raison d'etre of Israel.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Let's think about this for a minute.

If their goal was simply to kill as many jews as possible, would they have targeted 300+ military personnel on October 7? Wouldn't it have been more effective to avoid people that can shoot back and just gone after soft targets such as schools, malls, etc?
.

Are you saying the goal of the October 7th attack wasn’t simply to kill as many Jews as possible? If so, what was their goal?

In my opinion, the number of military personnel killed was just the number that they came in contact with that day. I don’t think that they were specifically “targeting” or trying to avoid military personnel.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Are you saying the goal of the October 7th attack wasn’t simply to kill as many Jews as possible? If so, what was their goal?

In my opinion, the number of military personnel killed was just the number that they came in contact with that day. I don’t think that they were specifically “targeting” or trying to avoid military personnel.

I think 2500 heavily armed men in a densely populated setting can do a hell of a lot more damage than 400ish civilians if they avoid military personnel.

I also think that if Hamas' goal is simply to kill jews, there are more effective ways to do so than what happened on October 7.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Re the Bertrand tweet above, I think in the fullness of time the facts will come out about the IDF's actions on October 7th and they will likely show a significant proportion (by which I don't mean the majority) of the civilian casualties in Israel died as a result of the IDF's actions. I think this because the situation resolved so quickly - few reports of drawn out hostage situations or negotiations with terrorists occupying buildings, etc. The only way it could have ended so quickly to my mind would have been unfettered military force with reduced regard for civilian casualties. The reference to the Hannibal doctrine may be apt, but even if it wasn't strictly employed I have a hard time seeing how the situation could have ended so soon otherwise.

Hopefully inquiries and investigations eventually give us the full truth about this (and other major events in the conflict).

Has this been suggested anywhere else?
This is the first link I'm seeing where someone is suggesting many of the Israeli deaths on Oct 7th were at the hands of the IDF.
He goes as far as saying the deaths at the music festival were largely due to helicopter's firing down on everyone.

That's a pretty massive claim, would like to see if there's some evidence there beyond just this tweet interview.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Has this been suggested anywhere else?
This is the first link I'm seeing where someone is suggesting many of the Israeli deaths on Oct 7th were at the hands of the IDF.
He goes as far as saying the deaths at the music festival were largely due to helicopter's firing down on everyone.

That's a pretty massive claim, would like to see if there's some evidence there beyond just this tweet interview.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...f-df7f22d60000

Gen. Barak Hiram said he had ordered a tank commander to fire on the home of Kibbutz Be'eri resident Pesi Cohen, in which Israeli civilians and many terrorists were holed up, "even at the cost of civilian casualties."