Israel declares war on Hamas

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...nt-since-oct-7

Opinion piece written by a guy who has no love for the Liberal government.

But interesting that a terrorist organization has thanked Canada for their support.

and NZ & Aus

[CaptainCrunch]

Article talking about Israel offering a week long ceasefire for the release of 40 hostages and Hamas rejecting it. Its easy for the senior Hamas leadership to reject everything at this point as they're safely out of the country and sitting on their billions of dollars.



https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...f-40-hostages/

[Bagor]

US branch of Medecins Sans Frontieres has joined 13 other humanitarian and civil rights organizations in an open letter to US defense secretary Lloyd Austin to protect civilians in Gaza from Israeli attacks across the strip.

Some strong language accusing Israel of the targeting of civilians and civilian objects.

Categorically oppose the targeting of civilians and civilian objects, indiscriminate attacks that fail to distinguish between civilian and military objects, and attacks that cause disproportionate civilian harm; as well as the deprivation of life-saving humanitarian assistance and the use of siege tactics to deprive the civilian population of items indispensable to its survival. We note with great alarm numerous reports of attacks on civilians and civilian objects, including media reporting detailing the Israeli military’s use of “power targets,” civilian objects such as residential buildings and universities attacked with the stated goal, according to current and former intelligence analysts quoted in the media, of “creat[ing] a shock” that will “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas.” In recent remarks, President Biden also stated that Israel is engaging in “indiscriminate bombing.” Such practices clearly violate international humanitarian law (IHL) principles that require militaries to distinguish between civilians and combatants and prohibit attacks that cause disproportionate harm to civilians and civilian objects. The U.S. government must unequivocally condemn indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks on civilians or civilian objects in Gaza.

We are also deeply concerned with Israel’s continued restriction of humanitarian assistance and deprivation of the resources essential for survival. International law requires that parties to conflict allow and facilitate rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian relief for civilians in need (Customary Rule 55).

Full letter.
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.or...civilians-gaza

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Article talking about Israel offering a week long ceasefire for the release of 40 hostages and Hamas rejecting it. Its easy for the senior Hamas leadership to reject everything at this point as they're safely out of the country and sitting on their billions of dollars.



https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...f-40-hostages/

This is the problem with a large well funded terrorist organization. There is no way to get rid of them without significant collateral damage. I am surprised at how little pressure there is on Hamas in all of this. It's easy for Israel to say to the world now..."look we tried" and continue with the carnage. The rich terror leaders get richer siphoning off the world's compassion dollars while the poor keep dying.

[CaptainYooh]

What I find difficult to understand is how they are all still alive and rich. Seems like everyone who needs to know where they are knows where they are. Everyone proclaims “we condemn Hamas”, yet nobody does anything about their leaders, who play ping-pong in their palaces and openly enjoy the most luxurious accommodations wherever they go. Why?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

What I find difficult to understand is how they are all still alive and rich. Seems like everyone who needs to know where they are knows where they are. Everyone proclaims “we condemn Hamas”, yet nobody does anything about their leaders, who play ping-pong in their palaces and openly enjoy the most luxurious accommodations wherever they go. Why?

Middle East politics is very complicated. It's made up of many major parties all jockeying for influence against each other. There are many situations where you have parties acting both as allies and sworn enemies simultaneously.

Qatar who is supposedly one of the neutral party mediators, provides Hamas with hundreds of millions of dollars every year and also houses their leaders.

Qatar and the Saudis are allies within the Arab League. They are also having fairly major proxy wars with each other on at least 4 fronts. Qatar, for example, provided 1000 troops to help the Saudis in Yemen but also funded the anti-Saudi forces in Yemen.

[CliffFletcher]

The leaders of Arab regimes know that conflict with Israel is stupid and useless. Better to trade with them, and to get them onside against Iran - which is what several Arab regimes were working towards when Hamas blew everything up. But on the other hand, Arab regimes know that many of their own poor, uneducated, often restive citizens are sympathetic to Hamas and other Islamist movements. So they throw them a bone now and then to placate their people.

[WCW Nitro]

New report about how there was no command and control center underneath Palestinian hospitals. Just add it to the list of Israeli lies.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.roll...234934784/amp/

An analysis by The Washington Post of open-source materials and evidence provided by Israel in the aftermath of the attack found very little proof that the tunnels under al-Shifa led to a major Hamas command center.

A separate November analysis of IDF footage by CNN found that Israeli forces may have moved or rearranged weapons within al-Shifa Hospital before providing international news organizations access to the scene, prompting questions regarding the authenticity of the already limited findings provided by IDF forces.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

Here's a suggestion: maybe look into things even the tiniest bit before just spouting random nonsense.

The attack on Gaza has killed more civilians in total than all of the war on Ukraine.

Not relative to time scale or population size. Just total numbers.

The number of dead children alone will pretty soon surpass all civilian deaths in Ukraine since February 2022.

It's just an absolute massacre.

Because Russia vs Ukraine is army-vs-army war. Gaza war is army-vs-terrorists using Hunan shields

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I don't understand how you can be so dense as to not realize that Israelis calling Palestinians "human animals", murdering 20,000+ civilians and climbing in two months and then having all these weird diaspora Jews elsewhere baying for continued bloodshed and continuously carrying water for their grotesquery might...just might give some Goyim pause and go "What the #### is wrong with the Jews?"

Lord knows I'm having a pretty massive identity struggle the last while.

Because Israel's response to Oct 7th is not much different than USA's response to Pearl Harbor. Except that USA killed way more civilians.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

These are terrible comparisons which really only demonstrate what exact mental gymnastics you've done to yourself to become a supporter of genocide.

Chechnya has been under Russian military occupation, ruled by a warlord who's controlled by a dictator. That's how you have "peace" in Chechnya. Great model.

EDIT: Forgot to mention: while Chechnya is no longer in the headlines, the militant resistance of local independence fighters only really started to end by 2020s, so over a decade since the 2nd Russo-Chechnyan war. Order in the area is kept with things like killings, torture, "filtration camps", or in other words: never-ending violence towards the civilian population.

In the case of Germany and Japan, the citizens of both countries had full political rights in their own, democratic, economically independent countries, just like they were before the war. What made them peaceful wasn't carpet bombing, it was removing their warmongering genocidal far-right governments from power by military force.

So if you suggest that Germany and Japan show a path to lasting peace, you are not suggesting carpet-bombing Gaza, you are suggesting the military occupation of Israel, court-martialing Netanyahu and his cronies and forcing actual democracy in thw area by gunpoint. Possibly forcibly re-educating the Israeli population on what was done to a minority population in their names to make sure they never vote for another far-right politician, like what happened in Germany.

It's a bold position, but yeah, that might work. I don't think anyone in the west has suggested that yet.

So you agree that the way to peace is an occupation, forced government change, massive re-education of population and forcing democracy at gunpoint (except that, though democracy, new far-right government is not allowed to be voted for). That's good. The only difference that we have is which side should go through the process. Which is beyond the point, although I will address it in my next response.The point of this post is that the only way to peace is a total submission of one side. The premise that violence only leads to more violence is just wrong. Decisive blowouts lead to peace, fair or not.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

That's not how actual independence works.
It doesn't really matter why Gazans were denied not just true autonomy, basic freedoms and a chance to a future.

Also, what's your excuse for West Bank? It's not under Hamas rule, yet they also don't have true autonomy, economic freedom etc. Jewish militants have been attacking Palestinian settlements constantly and have only increased their attacks now that the world is only looking at Gaza. 9 Arabs are dead in attacks by Jewish extemists and 182 have died in Israels anti-terrorist operations in the Eest Bank since the start of the operation.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/...r-second-front

"traditional and social media networks have been flooded with videos of Jewish extremists attacking Palestinian residents, burning homes and vehicles, vandalizing businesses, destroying crops, threatening locals with weapons, imposing movement restrictions, and trespassing on homes, land, and natural resources. According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, violent acts by Jewish extremists increased to an average of seven per day after October 7 compared to three per day the previous month, and Israeli authorities have not disputed these figures."

You claim that the Palestinians don't want a 2-state solution, but remove any context from that statement as if Palestinians just randomly have that opinion.

They've seen what "a 2 state solution" looks like in reality, and what it means is still constant oppression.

Even if you think that oppression is justified, it's still oppression.



Arabs in Israel see themselves as 2nd class citizens. (And most Arabs choose to not serve in the IDF.) That's how reality works, not ny cherrypicking examples.

The argument you're making is literally the same people use to deny the existence of racism in the US.

If you argue that somehow Israel treats Arabs and Jews equally, can you show me the equally massive anti-terrorism operation against Jewish extemists? Seven attacks per day by Jewish militias on IDF controlled territories is something IDF should clearly respond to... if IDF was there to protect Jews and Arabs equally.

What do you suggest the Palestinians do about the constant Jewish extremists attacks, when the Israeli government isn't protecting them?

You claim attacking Gaza through a bombing campaign and denying the population of Gaza basic necessities like food, water and electricity is justified to end the threat of attacks on Jews, and another Israel supporter suggested that carpet bombing Gaza would work as a solution to end the long term threat to Jews.

So by this logic, Arabs should be equally justified to attack Israel until all Jewish extremists are wiped from existence, and carpet bombing Israel would work as a solution.

And then you guys are somehow outraged that people don't these views.

You are a supporter of one-sided mass violence as a defense policy. That's what you argue for as a "solution".

It's a popular idea, but not really something that I think is helpful to protect the Jewish population, in Israel or globally.

You are cheating a bit here. The argument was that Arabian CITIZENS OF ISRAEL are treated equally. Not West Bank Arabs. But you substituted Arabian citizens of Israel with Arabs of West Bank and than refuted the argument that you yourself made.

Regarding the second point, it is fair argument, although still a wrong one. Carpet bombing the only democracy in the middle east, that is surrounded by legit terrorists states, is not the way to lasting peace. If Hamas and Hezbollah win, they will form an second ISIS or third Al Qaeda if you will, and begin plotting attacks on USA. Israel is the only thing that keeps the west from another 9/11.

[Pointman]

What's happening is essentially a USA-Iran proxy war. An interesting article about USA-Iran relationship written before October 7th and thus not skewed by any war propaganda


https://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/202...threat-options

[Bagor]

Great.
Mr bloodlusty, all all Palestinian citizens are Hamas is back.
Let's remember who you are.

Originally Posted by Pointman

However, this is an eye opener for those, who believe that civilians are one thing and Hamas is another thing altogether. They are all one, they are united by one goal and one hate. Who is cooking food for Hamas fighters? Who is treating their wounds? Who is teaching their kids to hate Jews? The so called civilians. The whole Gaza population is rotten to bones. It's not a healthy population with Hamas being few bad apples that you can surgically remove.

The so called civilians. The whole Gaza population is rotten to bones. It's not a healthy population with Hamas being few bad apples that you can surgically remove.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

New report about how there was no command and control center underneath Palestinian hospitals. Just add it to the list of Israeli lies.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.roll...234934784/amp/

An analysis by The Washington Post of open-source materials and evidence provided by Israel in the aftermath of the attack found very little proof that the tunnels under al-Shifa led to a major Hamas command center.

A separate November analysis of IDF fo®otage by CNN found that Israeli forces may have moved or rearranged weapons within al-Shifa Hospital before providing international news organizations access to the scene, prompting questions regarding the authenticity of the already limited findings provided by IDF forces.

I wonder are the US being duped here or simply going along with the lies? Either way not working out very well for them.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1738239090108088786

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Great.
Mr bloodlusty, all all Palestinian citizens are Hamas is back.
Let's remember who you are.

They absolutely are. They cheered on raped hostages, as one united group. Do you have something to add or you will continue to just quote me?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I wonder are the US being duped here or simply going along with the lies? Either way not working out very well for them.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1738239090108088786

If you read the actual investigation, there's a lot of evidence. Tunnels under the hospital are pretty much proven and not disputed. The only argument Post posits is that there's no evidence that those were used for command and control and we're actually headquarters of Hamas. The fact that Hamas was hiding in tunnels under hospital is proven


While the underground tunnel uncovered by Israeli forces after the raid does point to a possible militant presence underneath the hospital at some point, it does not prove that a command node was operating there during the war

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-hamas-israel/

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

New report about how there was no command and control center underneath Palestinian hospitals. Just add it to the list of Israeli lies.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.roll...234934784/amp/

An analysis by The Washington Post of open-source materials and evidence provided by Israel in the aftermath of the attack found very little proof that the tunnels under al-Shifa led to a major Hamas command center.

A separate November analysis of IDF footage by CNN found that Israeli forces may have moved or rearranged weapons within al-Shifa Hospital before providing international news organizations access to the scene, prompting questions regarding the authenticity of the already limited findings provided by IDF forces.

So you are saying there was no command center under a hospital because a newspaper in the United States could not find proof that there was a command center under the hospital?

Am I missing something here? I don’t see this as any kind of proof, as to if there was or wasn’t a command center under the hospital.

I would think that US and Israel intelligence know the truth. We may never know the truth, but just because a newspaper doesn’t know the truth - well, that doesn’t mean anything to me.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

If you read the actual investigation, there's a lot of evidence. Tunnels under the hospital are pretty much proven and not disputed. The only argument Post posits is that there's no evidence that those were used for command and control and we're actually headquarters of Hamas. The fact that Hamas was hiding in tunnels under hospital is proven


While the underground tunnel uncovered by Israeli forces after the raid does point to a possible militant presence underneath the hospital at some point, it does not prove that a command node was operating there during the war

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-hamas-israel/

Oh ffs I get that you feel the need to justify your sick slaughter but EVERYONE knew there were tunnels under the hospital as they were built by Israel.

There is zero evidence that a command centre ever existed there. Zero. That was the justification for the attack.

But why are you even worried about it? In your mind those were Hamas babies that were killed in the incubators. Terrorist Hamas infants in the ICU.

Originally Posted by Pointman

The whole Gaza population is rotten to bones. It's not a healthy population with Hamas being few bad apples that you can surgically remove.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I would think that US and Israel intelligence know the truth. We may never know the truth, but just because a newspaper doesn’t know the truth - well, that doesn’t mean anything to me.

So what's your position? You believe there was a command centre because they said so and there is zero evidence of it?

You still believe Iraq has WMDs? I mean you would think US and British intelligence know the truth? Right? That's how it works?