Too many [mod edit]: people with quads, 4x4s...

[Dion]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Well I don't camp there, so I can't say that I have seen it. However, they certainly do at the campground between Sundre and Olds... what the heck is it called? I can't remember now. But yeah, they do. Probably at most campgrounds.

I've camped in many places over the years and have yet to be checked by the RCMP. Guess I have been lucky so far. Although I have witnessed the odd group of rowdy campers who were kicked out when the owner of the campground phoned in for assistance to have them removed.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by 8 Ball

I was camping at Sandy Mcnabb with some friends and family and there was a steady stream of RCMP and fish cops rolling through and checking things out. Its a provincial campground with no ohv use. They step up police presence everywhere during May long.

I forgot about that place.

Sandy McNabb used to be a favourite spot of mine in my youth. While weren't rowdy, the place did have it's fair share.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by 4X4

So, I'm officially waiting to hear from the boat crowd. I want to know why their hobby isn's as damaging as mine. Hikers too.

Well I've already stated my view of things earlier in the thread, so there's no need to repeat that, but I will take you up on this. Do you really think hiking does as much damage as 4x4s?

Let's start with trails: yes, both create trails, which are bad (other than if you accept that people are going to do it anyways, in which case trails actually reduce overall impact in high traffic areas). However, hiking trails are almost always much smaller. It also takes more hikers to create a trail. One or two people walking through most types of terrain do very little in the way of trail creating. One or two quads do much, much more. Hiking does create trails too, but not to the same extent.

Litter: Done by idiots on both sides. I'm not going to get into who litters more, because I have nothing to back my theories up on this, but good hikers AND ATVers don't do it. There are litterers on both sides though, as I said.

Fossil Fuels: Most hikers drive to their dropoff/pickup locations. So do 4x4ers. For hikers, however, that's where it stops. You don't need gasoline to walk from point A to point B.

Any other points you would like to address? Can you think of any point on which we could agree that hiking does more damage? Because I've given you two where 4x4ing does more than hiking.


I assume by "boat crowd", you mean "motorboat crowd". I canoe. It's much less damaging than either motorboats or ATVs. I don't care to defend motorboats.

As I said in my earlier post, I'm ok with responsible 4x4ing. I'm not ok with irresponsible 4x4ing OR hiking. But I think it's silly to pretend 4x4ing isn't more damaging to the environment than hiking.

[OracleOfCalgary]

This discussion is too narrow. We would be lucky if the damage was limited just to recreation areas. The problem is much more widespread. Every time a company puts in a road for O&G exploration or forestry, the redn.. ahem, irresponsible 4x4'ers follow shortly behind, destroying creeks and wrecking the roadways themselves. (This was in the news last year.)

I am also astonished that some people can't see how turning a creek into a mud pit is a bad thing. Amazing.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by OracleOfCalgary

I am also astonished that some people can't see how turning a creek into a mud pit is a bad thing. Amazing.

they're too busy creaming their pants over the "soothing sound of a 2-stroke".

[urban1]

Wow. Just saw the 5:00pm news on Global. What a disaster?!

People are fockin ignorant!

[jayswin]

Shame on the losers that can't clean up after themselves. From the looks of things, it seems like you idiots have ruined it for everyone, as per global news at 6:00. Camping in the said areas will be severly limited if not shut down all together next season. God people can be ignorant.

...and like you guys, I also can't believe there are people that don't understand the environmental imapct of 4x4's ruining creeks. Unbelievable.

[Clarkey]

My fear is that further limitations on areas like Waiporous will displace these inbreds into other areas that they haven't ruined yet.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

My fear is that further limitations on areas like Waiporous will displace these inbreds into other areas that they haven't ruined yet.

I'm afraid to mention where I have started to see them too, in case they get any ideas.

[urban1]

I just dont see how anyone camping there could see leaving all that ##### behind as a good idea.

We've gone camping in the past and have taken furniture, lawn ornamants, kiddie pools, and anything else you can imagine. But we took everything when we left. Most campsites or towns have garbage dumps near by. If you have a truck to pull your toys, then you can load up that truck and throw out your garbage. The scene I saw on the news really pi$$e$ me off.

Its great to see the Calgary Jeep Club out there cleaning up the mess everyone else left behind.

Its too bad but all those people ruined it for everyone else but also for themselves.

Originally Posted by flameswin

Shame on the losers that can't clean up after themselves. From the looks of things, it seems like you idiots have ruined it for everyone, as per global news at 6:00. Camping in the said areas will be severly limited if not shut down all together next season. God people can be ignorant.

...and like you guys, I also can't believe there are people that don't understand the environmental imapct of 4x4's ruining creeks. Unbelievable.

[pope04]

I caught a clip on CFCN. The burnt-out car was a nice touch.

[Juventus3]

Can you imagine what those places would look like if the weather didn't suck this weekend? Chalk me up for banning all ATV and 4x4ing in Alberta after watching the news tonight. What a pathetic crowd. We need more jails.

EDIT:errr that was pre-mature reaction. I don't think banning ATV's and such would put anyone much further ahead. Something has to be done though. And not just a threat of fines...

[Cerebral]

Yikes, that was an ugly news clip - I'm not sure if I'm in favor of banning ATVing or not but that clip sure makes me think about it.

[Azure]

Well I hope the government doesn't ban ATVs...dumbest idea ever.

What about us folks who don't go messing up the campgrounds?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well I hope the government doesn't ban ATVs...dumbest idea ever.

What about us folks who don't go messing up the campgrounds?

I'm sure you are great, as are lot's of people who operate ORV, but the problem is our environment is very fragile and there are simply too many people ruining it for people like you and tarnishing the image of responsible off roaders. It's unfortunate, but true.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by fotze

4x4 is going to flip when he comes home and sees what you guys have done to this thread.

No kidding, this thread needs a little "reclamation". Reading through this thread, I'm shocked at how some people are ignorant to the results of their actions and try to defend them. I've mountain biked on trails... and it's common knowledge that if the trail is wet and you can damage the trail, you don't ride. Respect the outdoors and it will be there another day for you to enjoy. Damage it, and either it won't be the same, or you will be prevented from doing what you love doing.

[metallicat]

Yeah no kidding. I don't envy some of you right now.

I don't have a problem with areas of the province being designated 4x4 zones or whatever they do or call them. So what if the activities ruin the environment where they take place? I'd rather it be restricted to certain places, than either allowing free reign, or banning it all together.

As is the case with every single hobby or activity or sport or whatever, the small minority makes everyone look bad.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

No kidding, this thread needs a little "reclamation". Reading through this thread, I'm shocked at how some people are ignorant to the results of their actions and try to defend them. I've mountain biked on trails... and it's common knowledge that if the trail is wet and you can damage the trail, you don't ride. Respect the outdoors and it will be there another day for you to enjoy. Damage it, and either it won't be the same, or you will be prevented from doing what you love doing.

You might be surprised at how uncommon "common" knowledge is with this sort of thing. Lots of mountain bikers still do ride without concern for the trail. Just like lots of hikers and 4x4ers. The good ones are, again, fine by me.

[troutman]

The Herald is all over it today. The main editorial and letters to the editor express outrage:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...b-cf38f35c8442

Over the Victoria Day long weekend, 5,000 people were at Indian Graves and another 5,000 camped at McLean Creek. Meanwhile, provincial officials say the numbers have ballooned in the last five years with Calgary's booming population.

Long-term, Morton needs to devise new access management plans applicable to currently unprotected public recreation lands. New restrictions on random camping and indiscriminate trail usage are crucial, while tightened restrictions on alcohol consumption and more checkstops would substantially diminish much of the worst behaviour.

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...ers/index.html

Lack of respect shocks reader
Creeps and Bums Return - Re: Wilderness 'abuses' trouble Morton.

Four-wheel fury flies
Old Story - Re: Minister tours area overrun by boggers, May 20.

Rednecks rule
First Hand - I hiked the south Kananaskis region on Sunday, and experienced the destruction to the environment first-hand. These rednecks have no respect for natural resources, let alone any kind of resource. In fact, the water habitats in the area showed clear signs of oil or gasoline seeping into the environment from their adolescent toys.

Hike penalties
A Fine Fix - You do not need a master's degree to figure out a solution. First, no more dirt bikes, quads and off road vehicles. Hire more permanent staff to patrol these areas i.e. Indian Graves, Ghost Waiparous, McLean Creek and the forest reserve. Zero tolerance for littering, and destruction of the area with fines starting at $250. If vehicles get left behind, track the owner down via the VIN number and slap them with the cost of removing it and an additional $2,000 fine.

Something smells
It's Time - It is about time someone from the Alberta government recognizes that off road vehicles are a significant problem in this province.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Let's not get carried away here... I lived in a small town and the RCMP were forced to cover the campgrounds at long weekends with or without any 4x4ers. It's not just them that cause issues... was the guy beaten half to death a 4x4er? Was his attacker a 4x4er? Was the fight over 4x4ing? Or were they just a couple idiots? Perhaps we should ban men in general from camping on long weekends because the majority of them get drunk and rowdy? See? Stupid, isn't it? People camping cause problems on long weekends in general, it's not just the 4x4ers that cause police to be dispatched.

Nobody goes to Mclean Creek without 4X4ing, knowing people there 4X4ing, or watching 4X4ing. As for the guy that got beat up, he got beat up because some group's generator got unplugged somehow and they thought it was that guy and all hell broke loose. A couple of idiots as is the case wherever you mix thousands of people and alcohol in one area. I like how you completely let off the female gender despite the fact that there was plenty of them up there getting drunk and causing a ruckus too.