[PGT] Wild 5 Flames 2

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I am 100% certain that you can do better than this.

A lot of people are missing the point. With other goalies I’ve said “maybe the save percentage is low but you have to actually look at the game and the goals that were scored to see if the goalie was good or not”. And been told “nah, save percentage is save percentage”. Except that wasn’t for a fan favorite goalie. So I expected people to (correctly) explain Wolf’s save percentage as a function of the situation and the team in front of him. The point being, this can also apply to any goalie’s individual game, or seven a string of games. Markstrom has generally been good this season but has a poor save percentage and a losing record. For the most part because of the team and not his own performance.

[Erick Estrada]

They lost that game 5-2 if Markstrom starts so I don't see a point in a goaltender debate. Vladar actually made some really good saves in the first period where he was hung out to dry on several occasions. The 3rd goal was a stinker but then again Markstrom typically has one of those nearly every start. As for Wolf, I thought he played well enough and had no chance on either goal. This game wasn't lost by the goaltenders. It was lost because the team in front of the goaltenders was terrible.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

They lost that game 5-2 if Markstrom starts so I don't see a point in a goaltender debate. Vladar actually made some really good saves in the first period where he was hung out to dry on several occasions. The 3rd goal was a stinker but then again Markstrom typically has one of those nearly every start. As for Wolf, I thought he played well enough and had no chance on either goal. This game wasn't lost by the goaltenders. It was lost because the team in front of the goaltenders was terrible.

All true - well, Vladar I thought was pretty wild in his movements. I thought he should have stopped the shot for the second, though he was partly screened by one guy. The first was a wicked shot but pretty far out. Depending on the poster those get blamed on the goalie quite a bit here. I actually didn’t like Vladar’s look in warmup.

But the overall point is yes, they lose no matter who plays and goaltending wasn’t the issue.

[Erick Estrada]

Looks to me like the team simply wasn't prepared to play last night against a team riding the high of a new coach bump.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Inconsistency is in the Flames' DNA. Every time I think we've made a stride, we don't. Inconsistent effort all around. We will have one player having a few career games and then fall flat the next week.

Sell the UFAs. I was starting to lean on willingness to keep Hanifin here but good thing you don't do decisions based on a few games of good hockey. He needs to go, just like Lindholm and Tanev do too.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

They lost that game 5-2 if Markstrom starts so I don't see a point in a goaltender debate. Vladar actually made some really good saves in the first period where he was hung out to dry on several occasions. The 3rd goal was a stinker but then again Markstrom typically has one of those nearly every start. As for Wolf, I thought he played well enough and had no chance on either goal. This game wasn't lost by the goaltenders. It was lost because the team in front of the goaltenders was terrible.

The team played terrible. They came out slow, fell behind. And then trying to catch up and started taking more risks. A lot of sloppy play missed passes. In their own zone they were throwing the puck to the to the other team. Could be a coaching issue.

[madmike]

Meh. They’re just not a very good team. I’m likely in the minority, but I don’t mind the losses if it leads to them finally blowing up this mess of a roster and actually trying to build something exciting.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by madmike

Meh. They’re just not a very good team. I’m likely in the minority, but I don’t mind the losses if it leads to them finally blowing up this mess of a roster and actually trying to build something exciting.

I am in the same boat. I love the wins, but don't mind the losses. The losses likely benefit us not making any irrational decisions and should make the decision-making for Conroy a lot easier.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Vladar had-1.35 goals saved above expected, which is terrible.
Wolf had-0.39 goals saved above expected, which is unremarkable.

Both had poor save percentages. Both had poor nights. Vladar's was especially bad.

This is a perfect example of why I think this stat is garbage...

"-0.39 goals saved above expected" sounds VERY exact, very accurate.

But it doesn't coincide with reality at all. Both goals against Wolf (just like the first goal against Vladar) were unstoppable. He literally made every save he could. But according to the stat, he underperformed 'expected'.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A lot of people are missing the point. With other goalies I’ve said “maybe the save percentage is low but you have to actually look at the game and the goals that were scored to see if the goalie was good or not”. And been told “nah, save percentage is save percentage”. Except that wasn’t for a fan favorite goalie. So I expected people to (correctly) explain Wolf’s save percentage as a function of the situation and the team in front of him. The point being, this can also apply to any goalie’s individual game, or seven a string of games. Markstrom has generally been good this season but has a poor save percentage and a losing record. For the most part because of the team and not his own performance.

I know what the point is.

But the post I quoted was not an argument. It was basically "nah nah"

One game is not a statistical argument. I don't think last night proved anything, either way. But let's argue with good, reasoned posts (like you did here), and not like some posters who, unfortunately, we can't hold to a reasonable standard.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

That game was like me tonight. Started out half-drunk. Watched most of the first and fell asleep. Woke up when it was 4-1 for a bit, got a goal in and went back to snoozing.

Glad I didn't have to pay for it.

No effort. No skill. No attention to detail. And the Wild skated rings around them all night long from what I saw. So exciting. Blech.

I got tired just reading your post. Your description is pretty much the reason I skipped this one; nothing more dreary and boring then a Flames vs Wild game on a Tuesday night. Gross.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

They lost that game 5-2 if Markstrom starts so I don't see a point in a goaltender debate. Vladar actually made some really good saves in the first period where he was hung out to dry on several occasions. The 3rd goal was a stinker but then again Markstrom typically has one of those nearly every start. As for Wolf, I thought he played well enough and had no chance on either goal. This game wasn't lost by the goaltenders. It was lost because the team in front of the goaltenders was terrible.

Agreed. The only bad goal was the 3rd one. And pulling Vladar at that point was the right move (primarily to shake up the team).

But they were losing that game, regardless of who was in net, so debating the goalies seems misdirected.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

All true - well, Vladar I thought was pretty wild in his movements. I thought he should have stopped the shot for the second, though he was partly screened by one guy. The first was a wicked shot but pretty far out. Depending on the poster those get blamed on the goalie quite a bit here. I actually didn’t like Vladar’s look in warmup.

But the overall point is yes, they lose no matter who plays and goaltending wasn’t the issue.

This is something that I feel is true about Vladar AND Markstrom. And it is a reason why I continue to wonder if the goalie coaches are to blame. They are both exaggerated in their movements.

Any goalie that joins the Flames, tends to get worse over time. I am not at practice, and I don't know what they are telling the goalies, so I can't say that it is this or that that is causing the problem. I just see a pattern of the goalies getting worse, into their 2nd and 3rd seasons with the Flames. It seems to have been happening for many years now.

Let's look at it another way: which goalies have PROGRESSED while being a member of the Flames? Who was the last one? Have there been any, since Kipper?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This is something that I feel is true about Vladar AND Markstrom. And it is a reason why I continue to wonder if the goalie coaches are to blame. They are both exaggerated in their movements.

Any goalie that joins the Flames, tends to get worse over time. I am not at practice, and I don't know what they are telling the goalies, so I can't say that it is this or that that is causing the problem. I just see a pattern of the goalies getting worse, into their 2nd and 3rd seasons with the Flames. It seems to have been happening for many years now.

Let's look at it another way: which goalies have PROGRESSED while being a member of the Flames? Who was the last one? Have there been any, since Kipper?

All goalies get worse over time, but I would think Rittich and Ramo both count. Unless you’re just picking an individual counting stat and defining progression as that one stat rising each year, both guys were examples of goaltenders we got more out of than anyone else.

I think we mostly see patterns we want to see. If we’re trying to identify a pattern over the last decade+ with different goalies, different coaches with different systems, different players in front of the goalie, different goalie coaches, etc, it’s going to be basically impossible to determine anything real.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I know what the point is.

But the post I quoted was not an argument. It was basically "nah nah"

One game is not a statistical argument. I don't think last night proved anything, either way. But let's argue with good, reasoned posts (like you did here), and not like some posters who, unfortunately, we can't hold to a reasonable standard.

The thing is, people use single game save % here all the time. That's the narrow point.

[Street Pharmacist]

Whenever any Canadian team poops the bed on the season people clamour for firing the goalie coach. Like clockwork. It avoids accepting a) the team allowed two many tough chances, b) that the team is no good, and c) that goalies are voodoo

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Whenever any Canadian team poops the bed on the season people clamour for firing the goalie coach. Like clockwork. It avoids accepting a) the team allowed two many tough chances, b) that the team is no good, and c) that goalies are voodoo

Don't we have enough evidence that we haven't had an elite goalie since Kipper? Sure, one can argue many teams don't have that luxury or have ever had it, however, we seem to be a team that has struggled to have a goalie that could be consistent. Yes, we've had guys like Talbot, Markstrom, and Mike Smith who did well in their own right, but they also had their warts and wouldn't really consider any of them elite. We have also had guys like Rittich, Elliott, Hiller, Ramo, etc. Whole lot of meh. Elliott and Hiller were actually good goalies until they came to us.

Just look at the Coyotes. It's a goaltending factory over there and I think goalie coaching plays a huge role in that. In the same time frame of when the Flames last had Kipper, the Coyotes have had Mike Smith, Dubnyk, Kuemper, Vejmelka, and now Ingram all playing fantastic hockey (Vejmelka not so much at the moment). Before Mike Smith, it was Ilya Bryzgalov, who had a few great seasons as a Coyote. Might have missed one or two, but goaltending was never an issue in AZ.

[Flamesfan05]

All I know is Markstrom and Vladar let in plenty of weak goals at bad times
Still to be seen with Wolf

But goaltending hasn’t been the biggest problems with Flames this year. They are a mediocre team at best and it can only get worse when they start trading their UFAs. A loss is probably a good thing. At least fans can be happy in June at the draft

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Don't we have enough evidence that we haven't had an elite goalie since Kipper? Sure, one can argue many teams don't have that luxury or have ever had it, however, we seem to be a team that has struggled to have a goalie that could be consistent. Yes, we've had guys like Talbot, Markstrom, and Mike Smith who did well in their own right, but they also had their warts and wouldn't really consider any of them elite. We have also had guys like Rittich, Elliott, Hiller, Ramo, etc. Whole lot of meh. Elliott and Hiller were actually good goalies until they came to us.

Just look at the Coyotes. It's a goaltending factory over there and I think goalie coaching plays a huge role in that. In the same time frame of when the Flames last had Kipper, the Coyotes have had Mike Smith, Dubnyk, Kuemper, Vejmelka, and now Ingram all playing fantastic hockey (Vejmelka not so much at the moment). Before Mike Smith, it was Ilya Bryzgalov, who had a few great seasons as a Coyote. Might have missed one or two, but goaltending was never an issue in AZ.

Bryz predates the current goalie coach and Smith got worse under him. Neither Vejmelka nor Ingram are doing anything anyone would probably categorize as “fantastic” but they have come out seemingly nowhere as average/slightly below average NHL-quality starters. On the flip side, you also missed Adin Hill, who caught fire with Vegas.

All that to add to the point that people kind of see what they want to see when it comes to goalie coaching, because I think people actually see so little of it. They’re not behind the bench or doing interviews very often. You don’t hear players talk about them often. It’s almost exclusively a fan-led thing, which is weird, but makes sense because it’s something you can easily single out that’s hard to actually prove right or wrong. Goaltenders good = goalie coach, goaltenders bad = goalie coach, meanwhile there are a dozen other (likely more important) factors that go into goaltending performance.

If the goalies like working with the goalie coach, that’s probably the right goalie coach for them.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Whenever any Canadian team poops the bed on the season people clamour for firing the goalie coach. Like clockwork. It avoids accepting a) the team allowed two many tough chances, b) that the team is no good, and c) that goalies are voodoo

Well I don't hear Canucks fans complain about Ian Clark but that's what happens when a team hires one of the better goaltender coaches in the league as they develop goaltenders and help them play better. Flames and Oilers fans have long complained about their goaltending coaches because both teams have been pretty poor at developing goaltenders and established goaltenders seem to get worse under their watch. Also both organizations have been very loyal to their goaltending coaches despite poor results which is kind of frustrating as a fan when a team goes through multiple head coaches but the guy in charge of goaltending always remains or even gets promoted despite goaltending being organizational weaknesses for a long time.