Well then that begs the question wth were you trying to say by posting the video?
Beause they show absolutely nothing. They show zero evidence of the existence of the "major command centre" that was claimed to exist to justify the destruction of a hospital and the slaughter of newborn infants, children, health care professionals, patients and civilians.
What were you trying to prove by posting the video?
So, the "major command centres", which even the U.S. has changed its wording on, are still standing but tens of thousands of civilians above are dead. Almost as if killing civilians was the operational goal.
Stop embarrassing yourself by trying to spin your way out of and justifying infanticide.
How much fuel did they claim to have supplied and how long would it have kept the hospital generators going?
Oh..the humanitarians.
… pretty unfair to say they’ve justified that. Feels like you need to take a bit of a break.
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No.
He deliberately lied and tried to spin it as Israel was fuelling the hospital and trying to protect life when that is clearly not the case.
I'm calling him on it.
But. I note that you thanked the lie. So why don't you tell me where they fuelled the hospital?
I didn't do anything of the sort. Nor was a single part of my post untruthful.
In fact, I even stated that Israel might not be doing enough. I have no idea specifically how much fuel Israel supplied. I wasn't there to measure it all out.
You're coming across as a bit unhinged right now.
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I didn't do anything of the sort. Nor was a single part of my post untruthful.
In fact, I even stated that Israel might not be doing enough. I have no idea specifically how much fuel Israel supplied. I wasn't there to measure it all out.
You're coming across as a bit unhinged right now.
Sure thing. You're the one that's trying to defend the slaughter of newborns, infants, patients, civilians and healthcare workers by spinning that Israel was keeping the hospital supplied with fuel.
You knew how much fuel that Israel supplied to the point that you were able to try and present the lie that they were keeping the hospital going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall;®8898371
Israel also didn't "massacre" the patients insides. They supplied the hospital with fuel and worked with other nations to provide evacuation corridors for patients.
Sure thing. You're the one that's trying to defend the slaughter of newborns, infants, patients, civilians and healthcare workers by spinning that Israel was keeping the hospital supplied with fuel.
You knew how much fuel that Israel supplied to the point that you were able to try and present the lie that they were keeping the hospital going.
Israel spends hundreds of millions of dollars treating tens of thousands of Palestinians in hospitals every year. I'm not sure why the Israeli government would now go out of their way to specifically kill people in a hospital:
Undoubtedly, the short- and long-term suffering of an ill Palestinian delayed at a checkpoint is always unfortunate, and occasionally even tragic. However, despite ongoing terror threats, and even during unrest and wars, many Palestinians do pass daily into Israel for medical care. Israeli hospitals have long provided Palestinians with extensive medical services. For example, during the research period (in 2005 alone), approximately 123 000 Palestinians were treated at just one institution, Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem, which included 15 000 admissions as well as 32 000 visits to the emergency department.5
In general, special entry permits are issued in humanitarian cases for ill people, their chaperones, and for Palestinian medical teams. For example, more recently, in 2016, 93 890 such authorizations were issued for patients (plus 100 722 for accompanying family) to be treated at hospitals throughout Israel. At the two West Jerusalem Hadassah hospitals alone, 15 743 patients, comprising more than one third of the total, came through checkpoints and were cared for there. Another 16% (6577 patients) crossed into Israel and were treated in hospitals in East Jerusalem.5
During the same year, 9832 Palestinian children with birth defects and chronic diseases were treated in Israeli hospitals. During the first half of 2017, 46 132 such permits have been issued and a further 2163 authorized Palestinian medical personnel to work or be trained in Israel or East Jerusalem (written personal communication, October 4, 2017, Ido D. Dechtman and Yuval Ran, Medical Corps, Tel Aviv, Israel Defense Forces). Another noteworthy example of Israeli compassion for the suffering of her Arab neighbors is the treatment of more than 4000 victims of the Syrian Civil War in civilian hospitals at Israeli government expense.6
Once again, should Israel be taking more care is a valid question. Your accusations don't really jive with the facts.
And no I did not measure the fuel that Israel was supplying nor do I know enough about the hospitals fuel requirements to comment on whether that was enough fuel. I've seen videos of them dropping off fuel and statements from various Israeli and non-Israeli officials that fuel was indeed being delivered to the hospital. The hospital, since Israel took over, appears to be still running, which suggests they have some source of power.
Last edited by blankall; 11-23-2023 at 02:29 PM.
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Hamas uses hospitals as command centers. Hamas wants civilians to die, Hamas does everything possible to put Palestinians in danger, so people scream genocide. Not a hard formula to understand.
And no I did not measure the fuel that Israel was supplying nor do I know enough about the hospitals fuel requirements to comment on whether that was enough fuel.
Backtrack. Backtrack. Well then, maybe you should inform yourself better refrain from making false statements and spin that they are were keeping the hospital going.
But no. You'll just continue with your spin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
The hospital, since Israel took over, appears to be still running, which suggests they have some source of power.
Stop with your sick lies please.
No. It is not.
In fact the last description of it by WHO was that it was a death zone. It is no longer a functioning hospital. There is a mass grave outside the hospital.
Quote:
About 2,500 people, among them many sick and injured, including amputees, walked south from the area of al-Shifa on Saturday after being told to leave, the hospital director said, picking their way through ruined streets and rotting corpses.
On Sunday, the WHO and Palestinian Red Crescent started evacuating those who were unable to flee on foot, including 32 babies in extremely critical condition, trauma patients with severely infected wounds due to a lack of antibiotics, and 29 patients with serious spinal injuries.
Regarding the other patients, the WHO warned that facilities in Gaza’s south, which is supposedly safer than Gaza City, were already overwhelmed and an immediate ceasefire was needed given the extreme levels of suffering.
“Patients and health staff with whom they spoke were terrified for their safety and health, and pleaded for evacuation,” the UN agency said, describing al-Shifa as a “death zone”.
As reporters on the ground described seeing ambulances travelling north to Gaza City to assist with the Shifa hospital evacuations on Sunday, news emerged from the international NGO Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) that one person was killed when a convoy carrying staff and family members came under attack on Saturday while evacuating from its clinic near al-Shifa, despite coordinating its passage with both sides.
At least 40 people, including eight premature babies, died this week at al-Shifa because of a lack of electricity to operate life-saving equipment such as incubators and dialysis machines, the UN has said.
Yes, you are correct re Quds network. Would you prefer if I posted the same clip from a different source? Would that make it less false and you'd be able to comment on it then?
Welcome back. How long do you plan on staying this time?
I don't think it really matters who built the bunkers. Israel building them adds to their case, as they would have more factual knowledge of the extent of the bunkers beneath the hospital and what they could be used for. The initial intent was likely to be used as the intended purpose of bunkers, which is to protect civilians during war time.
You can clearly see that tunnels were added to the bunkers, that would allow fighters to move more freely in and out of them and access them from different points.
There's also a video of Hamas gunmen forcing a hostage into the hospital at gunpoint and bringing at least 2 other hostages into the hospital. That alone gives Israel reason to enter the hospital. Israel also didn't storm the hospital. They waited several days until they had a relatively safe opportunity to enter, which likely gave Hamas more than enough time to evacuate and clean up a lot of their operation, wipe the cameras, etc...Even then, Hamas still left quite a bit of evidence behind.
The video also shows armed Hamas gunmen entering the hospital in full view of the hospital staff, who seemed to be reacting (or in this case not reacting) to gunmen entering the hospital like it was an everyday occurrence. The hospital staff lied through their teeth later denying that gunmen or hostages had entered.
Israel also didn't "massacre" the patients insides. They supplied the hospital with fuel and worked with other nations to provide evacuation corridors for patients.
You may not think it's enough, and it might not be, but it's a pretty far cry from the supposed and purposeful large scale massacre you are making it out to be.
None of that will make it through the media bubbles of the people who need to hear it. Welcome to the post-truth society.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Backtrack. Backtrack. Well then, maybe you should inform yourself better refrain from making false statements and spin that they are were keeping the hospital going.
But no. You'll just continue with your spin.
Stop with your sick lies please.
No. It is not.
In fact the last description of it by WHO was that it was a death zone. It is no longer a functioning hospital. There is a mass grave outside the hospital.
What on earth would lead you to imply that it's still running?
It is NOT functioning as a medical unit any more.
Firstly, I haven't made any inconsistent statements.
There's a dispute with the IDF stating that Hamas refused to accept fuel prior to Israel entering the building. Hamas was stating that was not correct. Upon Israel taking over, the hospital was supplied with fuel and people were evacuated. Al Shifa Hospital continues to operate and Israel is now supplying fuel to it.
Once again, Israel didn't just run into the hospital with guns blazing or flatten it. Could they have done more, I don't know.
As Hamas had hostages in the hospital, Israel most certainly had a right to enter it. Hamas' continued presence at the hospital delayed Israel's entry. If it's true that Hamas was also refusing fuel, then that puts a lot of the blame for any tragedies that occurred at the hospital on them.
The WHO is also not getting first hand knowledge and getting much of their info from Hamas. From the UN's website:
The UN’s health agency WHO said on Sunday night that according to the Gaza health authorities, 37 premature babies at the hospital were relocated over the weekend to an operating room without their incubators, with health workers trying to heat the room.
I don't specifically know why the WHO would say what they did. According their own sources, they are largely relying on reports from the Gaza Health Authorities, who are controlled by Hamas.
This highlights a big issue in this conflict. The information coming out is largely coming out from Hamas or the IDF, obviously both sources with agendas.
Firstly, I haven't made any inconsistent statements.
There's a dispute with the IDF stating that Hamas refused to accept fuel prior to Israel entering the building. Hamas was stating that was not correct. Upon Israel taking over, the hospital was supplied with fuel and people were evacuated. Al Shifa Hospital continues to operate and Israel is now supplying fuel to it.
Once again, Israel didn't just run into the hospital with guns blazing or flatten it. Could they have done more, I don't know.
As Hamas had hostages in the hospital, Israel most certainly had a right to enter it. Hamas' continued presence at the hospital delayed Israel's entry. If it's true that Hamas was also refusing fuel, then that puts a lot of the blame for any tragedies that occurred at the hospital on them.
The WHO is also not getting first hand knowledge and getting much of their info from Hamas. From the UN's website:
I don't specifically know why the WHO would say what they did. According their own sources, they are largely relying on reports from the Gaza Health Authorities, who are controlled by Hamas.
This highlights a big issue in this conflict. The information coming out is largely coming out from Hamas or the IDF, obviously both sources with agendas.
Spin, spin, spin and more defence of the slaughter. I'm going to highlight in red just for you.
There were only 300 litres of fuel. Enough to keep the hospital running for 30 minutes. So your Hamas spin is irrelevant.
Despite your continued insistence it is NOT operational. Please stop with the persistent lie that it is.
And yes, the WHO is getting first hand knowledge. So stop dismissing or trying to descredit their observation that the hospital is a death zone.
Quote:
Earlier today, a joint UN humanitarian assessment team led by WHO accessed Al-Shifa Hospital in northern Gaza to assess the situation on the ground, conduct a rapid situational analysis, assess medical priorities and establish logistics options for further missions. The team included public health experts, logistics officers and security staff from OCHA, UNDSS, UNMAS/UNOPS, UNRWA and WHO.
The mission was deconflicted with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to ensure safe passage along the agreed route. However, this was a high-risk operation in an active conflict zone, with heavy fighting ongoing in close proximity to the hospital.
Earlier in the day, the IDF had issued evacuation orders to the remaining 2500 internally displaced people who had been seeking refuge on the hospital grounds. They, along with a number of mobile patients and hospital staff, had already vacated the facility by the time of the team's arrival.
Due to time limits associated with the security situation, the team was able to spend only one hour inside the hospital, which they described as a “death zone,” and the situation as “desperate.” Signs of shelling and gunfire were evident. The team saw a mass grave at the entrance of the hospital and was told more than 80 people were buried there.
Lack of clean water, fuel, medicines, food and other essential aid over the last 6 weeks have caused Al-Shifa Hospital – once the largest, most advanced and best equipped referral hospital in Gaza – to essentially stop functioning as a medical facility. The team observed that due to the security situation, it has been impossible for the staff to carry out effective waste management in the hospital. Corridors and the hospital grounds were filled with medical and solid waste, increasing the risk of infection. Patients and health staff with whom they spoke were terrified for their safety and health, and pleaded for evacuation. Al-Shifa Hospital can no longer admit patients, with the injured and sick now being directed to the seriously overwhelmed and barely functioning Indonesian Hospital.
There are 25 health workers and 291 patients remaining in Al-Shifa, with several patient deaths having occurred over the previous 2 to 3 days due to the shutting down of medical services. Patients include 32 babies in extremely critical condition, 2 people in intensive care without ventilation, and 22 dialysis patients whose access to life-saving treatment has been severely compromised. The vast majority of patients are victims of war trauma, including many with complex fractures and amputations, head injuries, burns, chest and abdominal trauma, and 29 patients with serious spinal injuries who are unable to move without medical assistance. Many trauma patients have severely infected wounds due to lack of infection control measures in the hospital and unavailability of antibiotics.
Given the current state of the hospital, which is no longer operational or admitting new patients, the team was requested to evacuate health workers and patients to other facilities. WHO and partners are urgently developing plans for theimmediateevacuation of the remaining patients, staff and their families
Spin, spin, spin and more defence of the slaughter. I'm going to highlight in red just for you.
There were only 300 litres of fuel. Enough to keep the hospital running for 30 minutes. So your Hamas spin is irrelevant.
Despite your continued insistence it is NOT operational. Please stop with the persistent lie that it is.
And yes, the WHO is getting first hand knowledge. So stop dismissing or trying to descredit their observation that the hospital is a death zone.
WHO: The hospital is a death zone. It is no longer operational as a hospital.
Blankall: What would they know? It appears to be still running.
The hospital made the decision to evacuate, which is probably a wise move, as its in the middle of a conflict zone. Once they took control of the hospital, Israel was not preventing supplies from getting there. If Israel was preventing supplies from getting in, how would the WHO people have even gotten in there. Why would Israel allow WHO representatives into the hospital if they were withholding basic supplies? Israel also worked with other nations, the WHO, and the Red Crescent to set up evacuation corridors.
As far as before Israel took control, the IDF's story is that they attempted to supply fuel, but Hamas states that's not correct. The IDF has supplied video of them providing fuel:
It's possible this video was staged and the tanks were empty or they removed the tanks later I guess?
The IDF has released various other evidence apparently showing Hamas taking fuel from the hospitals.
The hospital made the decision to evacuate, which is probably a wise move, as its in the middle of a conflict zone. Once they took control of the hospital, Israel was not preventing supplies from getting there. If Israel was preventing supplies from getting in, how would the WHO people have even gotten in there. Why would Israel allow WHO representatives into the hospital if they were withholding basic supplies? Israel also worked with other nations, the WHO, and the Red Crescent to set up evacuation corridors.
As far as before Israel took control, the IDF's story is that they attempted to supply fuel, but Hamas states that's not correct. The IDF has supplied video of them providing fuel:
It's possible this video was staged and the tanks were empty or they removed the tanks later I guess?
The IDF has released various other evidence apparently showing Hamas taking fuel from the hospitals.
It’s a bit weird that you were saying the WHO didn’t have first hand knowledge and now you’re using the fact that they have first hand knowledge as a counter point to something else you don’t believe.
It's possible this video was staged and the tanks were empty or they removed the tanks later I guess?
The IDF has released various other evidence apparently showing Hamas taking fuel from the hospitals.
Looks pretty much like a staged propaganda effort. Those soldiers were moving those cans around with little effort, not like you would with 35-40 pounds of weight in each. Walking around with two loaded jerry cans is a workout and a half. Also, why would they hand deliver fuel in jerry cans rather that just drive a fuel truck up since they have to feed a large fuel tank? If they have secured and are running the hospital they should have secure access to it. Seems like a staged event which is what we should expect at this point in the war.
Looks pretty much like a staged propaganda effort. Those soldiers were moving those cans around with little effort, not like you would with 35-40 pounds of weight in each. Walking around with two loaded jerry cans is a workout and a half. Also, why would they hand deliver fuel in jerry cans rather that just drive a fuel truck up since they have to feed a large fuel tank? If they have secured and are running the hospital they should have secure access to it. Seems like a staged event which is what we should expect at this point in the war.
As a guy who used to carry jerrycans around, I can tell you those are not full. See how they're holding them out and away from their legs? Yeah, you don't do that. It's a really taxing arm position. You let them rub/bash against your legs as at least that way your arms can be straight down. You can hold them out for a bit if you don't want to get your pants dirty, but it exhausts your arms in super speed and I assume clean pants aren't a priority in a war zone.
It’s a bit weird that you were saying the WHO didn’t have first hand knowledge and now you’re using the fact that they have first hand knowledge as a counter point to something else you don’t believe.
They did not have first hand knowledge during the siege. Israel let them in at a later date, after taking control of the hospital. It looks like the issue with the hospitals not functioning at full capacity was resources not damage to the hospital. The hospitals now have full resources but the WHO is choosing not to keep them open.
Looks pretty much like a staged propaganda effort. Those soldiers were moving those cans around with little effort, not like you would with 35-40 pounds of weight in each. Walking around with two loaded jerry cans is a workout and a half. Also, why would they hand deliver fuel in jerry cans rather that just drive a fuel truck up since they have to feed a large fuel tank? If they have secured and are running the hospital they should have secure access to it. Seems like a staged event which is what we should expect at this point in the war.
Okay...this is just silly. These are young men in great shape. 35 lbs on each side is not a lot. I'm a middle aged man and I train with 60+lbs weights on each hand for farmer carries. You can see they are walking with that stutter step that people have when something is heavy. You can also see the weight of the cans weighing down the soldiers arms, hence why the canisters swing behind their legs.
This micro-analysis isn't really necessary. Israel could just as easily have pulled the tanks away later.
