Israel declares war on Hamas

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Pointman has shown us who he is several times now, this isn't surprising

And how many of “us” have had to live through even a fraction of what he has in the last two years? I can’t even begin to imagine the stress and heartache.

Empathy can go a long way. And is sorely lacking in a lot of our discourse lately.

I’d encourage everyone on either side of the discussion to remember we are all human beings sitting behind keyboards talking about a very heart wrenching topic.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Azure

You keep saying 'equal', as if the actions are equal, which they are not, and in fact you are the one who is repulsive in thinking they are.

Let's find out who you are.

I found and still do find the Hamas attacks on October 7 absolutely disgusting, barbaric and repulsive.

I also find the slaughter of thousands of innocent citizens including thousands of children by Israel disgusting barbaric and repulsive.

Can you say the same?

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

And how many of “us” have had to live through even a fraction of what he has in the last two years? I can’t even begin to imagine the stress and heartache.

Empathy can go a long way. And is sorely lacking in a lot of our discourse lately.

I’d encourage everyone on either side of the discussion to remember we are all human beings sitting behind keyboards talking about a very heart wrenching topic.

You're replying to me like I'm the one advocating as much death as possible.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Let's dispel some of this once and for all:

On the 96% of West Bank number:
The often-repeated line that Barak offered the Palestinians the Gaza Strip and 96% of the West Bank for a state is completely untrue. Barak offered the Palestinians 96% of Israel’s definition of the West Bank, meaning they did not include any of the areas already under Israeli control, such as settlements, the Dead Sea, and large parts of the Jordan Valley. This meant that Barak effectively annexed 10% of the West Bank to Israel, with an additional 8-12% remaining under “temporary” Israeli control for a period of time.

You can read more about this here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...hepalestinians

On Jerusalem
In the case of East Jerusalem, which was supposed to be the capital of the Palestinian state, Israel refused any form of Palestinian sovereignty over the majority of the city, including many Palestinian neighborhoods. It should be noted that the PA agreed to Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods and the Western wall, and even proposed Israel annex settlements in East Jerusalem in return for land swaps elsewhere. This was met with Israeli intransigence, and an insistence that the Noble Sanctuary remain under Israeli sovereignty, and that a part of it should be reserved for Jewish worshippers.

On Palestinian Sovereignty
Israel demanded permanent control of Palestinian airspace, three permanent military installations manned by Israeli troops in the West Bank, Israeli presence at Palestinian border crossings, and special “security arrangements” along the borders with Jordan which effectively annexed additional land. Israel would also be allowed to invade at any point in cases of “emergency”. What constituted an emergency was left incredibly vague and up to interpretation. The Palestinian state would be demilitarized, and the Palestinian government would not be able to enter into alliances without Israeli permission. None of these are ingredients for the creation of an actual sovereign state.

This is ultimately the map proposed by Israel in those accords.


Basically it was asking the Palestinians to permanently accept being forced into Bantustans and signing off on their permanent status as an occupied people.

Yes, and it was the most they would ever have, now that offers gone and it will never be returned, all Palestine will ever be are Bantustans overseen by Israel, that's the inevitable consequence of losing three wars, in most cases when you lose three wars you dont even get that

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yes, I was, as it pertained to Russian Military personnel.

And like I said, it really was only you being over the top and blood thirsty, so CliffFletcher'a both sided argument doesn't work (again?)

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

And like I said, it really was only you being over the top and blood thirsty, so CliffFletcher'a both sided argument doesn't work (again?)

Careful or you’ll get a scolding for correctly pointing out that Cliff’s argument is weak.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Let's find out who you are.

I found and still do find the Hamas attacks on October 7 absolutely disgusting, barbaric and repulsive.

I also find the slaughter of thousands of innocent citizens including thousands of children by Israel disgusting barbaric and repulsive.

Can you say the same?

I can, of course the difference is the actions on October 7th were the precipitating incident and everything that has happened since is in response, that is not irrelevant.

Every single dead child is dead because of what Hamas did on the 7th, not a single one would have died if Hamas hadn't done what they did and every single dead civilian, both Jewish and Palestinian is what Hamas planned for and wants, this is all exactly what Hamas intended, I can criticize Israel for over reacting, I can criticize Israel for dancing to Hamas's bloody tune, which is never a great strategy, but in the end they had nothing to do with the start of this cycle, that is solely on Hamas.

I also have, because of Oct 7th, finally given up thinking there is any solution to this at all short of the utter victory of one side or the other, of the two sides I prefer Israel to win, a 'free' Palestine will be a grim poverty stricken religious craphole that offers nothing to most of its people but lives of unrelenting pain, just like most of the countries in the region, If I thought a ####ty corrupt poor Palestine could peacefully coexist with Israel I would be happy but I just dont think it can, I think it is a binary choice, the survival Israel or Palestine at this point

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Yes, and it was the most they would ever have, now that offers gone and it will never be returned, all Palestine will ever be are Bantustans overseen by Israel, that's the inevitable consequence of losing three wars, in most cases when you lose three wars you dont even get that

I think the prevailing thought within Palestinian society is no deal is better than a bad deal.

I think ultimately, the 2 state solution was dead on arrival. Even if a fully independent Palestine was to be established, that country would be absolutely dominated by Israel, economically, diplomatically and militarily.

The 1 state solution, in one form or another, is inevitable and is the only viable solution in my opinion.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think the prevailing thought within Palestinian society is no deal is better than a bad deal.

I think ultimately, the 2 state solution was dead on arrival. Even if a fully independent Palestine was to be established, that country would be absolutely dominated by Israel, economically, diplomatically and militarily.

The 1 state solution, in one form or another, is inevitable and is the only viable solution in my opinion.

the 1 state solution meaning Israel over the next 20 or 30 years takes away all of the West Bank, forces out all remaining Arabs, leaves Gaza a smoking ruin with no viable economic means of support and so slowly but surely Palestinians migrate away, become Jordanian Egyptian Canadian etc I assume?

Because the idea Israel will ever allow Palestinians citizenship or right of return was absurd before the 7th and there is nothing the west could or will do to force them either

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the 1 state solution meaning Israel over the next 20 or 30 years takes away all of the West Bank, forces out all remaining Arabs, leaves Gaza a smoking ruin with no viable economic means of support and so slowly but surely Palestinians migrate away, become Jordanian Egyptian Canadian etc I assume?

Because the idea Israel will ever allow Palestinians citizenship or right of return was absurd before the 7th and there is nothing the west could or will do to force them either

Nah.... this is working under the assumption that Netanyahu and his ilk will be around forever. I'm not even sure he's going to politically survive 2023 at thus rate.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think the prevailing thought within Palestinian society is no deal is better than a bad deal.

I think ultimately, the 2 state solution was dead on arrival. Even if a fully independent Palestine was to be established, that country would be absolutely dominated by Israel, economically, diplomatically and militarily.

The 1 state solution, in one form or another, is inevitable and is the only viable solution in my opinion.

The one state solution is a horrible option for Palestinians. Both sides will do everything in their power to ensure the other does not have a majority.

The Israelis are likely to continue to seal off the Gaza Strip and then continue to settle in the West Bank. The birthrate of Israelis in the West Bank is almost twice that of Palestinians.

A one state solution would also give Israelis the option of simply buying the West Bank/Gaza Strip out from under the Palestinians. Currently, there's a law in place by the Palestinian Authority making it punishable by death to sell land to a Jew. That land wouldn't hold up in a one state solution.

The Palestinians greatest weapon would likely be their birthrate, which would increase the likelyhood of them winning elections. The problem is that the Arab birthrate is falling dramatically, and the Jewish one is increasing. In a unified state, you'd see more Palestinian women forced into the workforce, which would cause an immediate decrease in the Palestinian birth rate.

There was a time when a one state solution would have meant an inevitable 80+% Arab majority. That's not the case anymore. You can actively see a change in who is pushing for the 1 state solution now, with many Israelis pushing for it.

In a single state, you'd have both sides actively competing to push the other out. The Palestinians would likely not come out ahead.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the actions on October 7th were the precipitating incident and everything that has happened since is in response, that is not irrelevant.

I would say it was a precipitating incident, but not the precipitating incident, considering the lives your average Palestinian person has had to live for years.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

The one state solution is a horrible option for Palestinians. Both sides will do everything in their power to ensure the other does not have a majority.

The Israelis are likely to continue to seal off the Gaza Strip and then continue to settle in the West Bank. The birthrate of Israelis in the West Bank is almost twice that of Palestinians.

A one state solution would also give Israelis the option of simply buying the West Bank/Gaza Strip out from under the Palestinians. Currently, there's a law in place by the Palestinian Authority making it punishable by death to sell land to a Jew. That land wouldn't hold up in a one state solution.

The Palestinians greatest weapon would likely be their birthrate, which would increase the likelyhood of them winning elections. The problem is that the Arab birthrate is falling dramatically, and the Jewish one is increasing. In a unified state, you'd see more Palestinian women forced into the workforce, which would cause an immediate decrease in the Palestinian birth rate.

There was a time when a one state solution would have meant an inevitable 80+% Arab majority. That's not the case anymore. You can actively see a change in who is pushing for the 1 state solution now, with many Israelis pushing for it.

In a single state, you'd have both sides actively competing to push the other out. The Palestinians would likely not come out ahead.

The lasting outcome of the last month and the massive pro Palestinian marches will also be a dramatic rise in Jewish migration to Israel as well, I do not doubt an extra million or so settlers will be arriving in the next year or two

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Israel don't have to just defeat Hamas. They also need to send a message to Hezbollah. And Israel does it by sending a message to Lebanon civilians. The message to Lebanon mother is that if your son goes to Hezbollah, you, not just your son, will be killed. The message to Lebanon wife is that if your husband joins Hezbollah, you and your little baby - not just your husband - will be killed. The message to Lebanon man is that if you join Hezbollah, your elderly parents - not just you - will be killed. And sending this message is the best way to keep the world safe from scum like Hezbollah and Hamas.

Are you serious? Your stance is that the innocent should die if a member of their family is radicalized? How is this any better than a terrorists rationalization?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

I would say it was a precipitating incident, but not the precipitating incident, considering the lives your average Palestinian person has had to live for years.

It was the precipitating incident for what is happening in Gaza right now, this was a planned act of utter barbarity not some cry for anguished help from an oppressed people, the world is full of oppressed minorities that often rise up and protest their oppression, they don't go rape and butcher a bunch of kids, the IRA would never even dream of an act like the 7th, hell they executed their own members for bringing the IRA into disrepute at times for being rapey or pedos

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by zunie75

Are you serious? Your stance is that the innocent should die if a member of their family is radicalized? How are you not banned yet?

He's a total monster. My jaw is on my desk as I read his posts.

Just as shocking: nobody in this thread on the side of the Israeli military says, 'woah, dude...too far' to him. This thread has been super eye opening about some of the posters here.

[Scroopy Noopers]

This is ####ing wild stuff to read… next war coming to a country near you. People seem to be pretty loose about the whole thing. US civil war? How do I get citizenship in switzlerland?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by zunie75

Are you serious? Your stance is that the innocent should die if a member of their family is radicalized? How is this any better than a terrorists rationalization?

I'm hoping that something is lost in translation here, as English is not Pointman's first language.

Hopefully, he's getting at the fact that if you elect a group like Hamas into power, then the eventual outcome is war on your territory.

For the record, I would neve advocate purposely killing civilians, including the families of militants.

Edit:

Pointman, if you do believe that the best solution is totally wiping out the Palestinian people, what you believe is wrong. I hope you can do some soul searching and come to a conclusion that will actually lead to a peaceful resolution.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'm hoping that something is lost in translation here, as English is not Pointman's first language.

Hopefully, he's getting at the fact that if you elect a group like Hamas into power, then the eventual outcome is war on your territory.

For the record, I would neve advocate purposely killing civilians, including the families of militants.

Edit:

Pointman, if you do believe that the best solution is totally wiping out the Palestinian people, what you believe is wrong. I hope you can do some soul searching and come to a conclusion that will actually lead to a peaceful resolution.

I think over all of the years on this board we are all pretty clear that Pointman knows how to communicate in English just fine.

Originally Posted by Pointman

The message to Lebanon mother is that if your son goes to Hezbollah, you, not just your son, will be killed. The message to Lebanon wife is that if your husband joins Hezbollah, you and your little baby - not just your husband - will be killed. The message to Lebanon man is that if you join Hezbollah, your elderly parents - not just you - will be killed. And sending this message is the best way to keep the world safe from scum like Hezbollah and Hamas.

I do not think there is anything to be misinterpreted here. Pointman, an Israeli citizen believes that the message needs to be sent to Hamas and Hezbollah fighters by killing their family members (sons, babies, wives, whoever) so that other fighters think twice about joining the cause.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

And like I said, it really was only you being over the top and blood thirsty, so CliffFletcher'a both sided argument doesn't work (again?)

yeah nah, but whatever