Israel declares war on Hamas

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by jammies

The idea behind an equal Palestinian state, with a constitutional congress overseen by a third party, is that it should be independent and have its own army, courts, and other paraphernalia of centralized, strong governance that makes irregulars like Hezbollah and Hamas untenable within its borders. The idea that you can keep the Palestinians weak and divided enough to "destroy terrorism" fails precisely because the weak and divided are susceptible to violent extremists who promise strength and unity.

Lebanon has never been the same since the Israelis invaded it in the 1980s, the south is an ungovernable chaos that they periodically raid or invade with no long-term plan other than hoping it will magically stop breeding the disaffected. Instead of learning from this, they've doubled down on it by making Gaza a ghetto and the West Bank a defacto occupation zone. While it doesn't excuse the actions of Hamas, who are a death cult of vile, reprehensible fanatics, Israel has chosen violence in preference to peace and is no longer fighting against terrorism but instead promulgating its own, less virulent but still abhorrent terror brand.

There are no easy solutions - building a prosperous, independent Palestine would likely take decades and would require outside capital (hence the reparations, which would not only be symbolic of Israel acknowledging that they owe a debt for taking Palestinian land, especially Gaza, but necessary to build a strong state that isn't beholden to Iranian or Saudi money) and vast, painful effort. However, the best time to start a long-term project is always now.

The fascist Netanyahu will never do this, certainly. The Israelis look to keep going down this self-destructive path, eventually ending up in the same place as their enemies, just with a different flag. Peace is "impossible", so instead it'll be permanent war.

Your post perhaps deserves a longer and more thoughtful response, but one thing is factually incorrect and needs to be addressed. People tend to forget, that Israel bought, not stole, Palestinians lands. It is acknowledged even in Palestinian sources, such as below:



The main feature of the second period, which began soon after the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and extends from 1921 to 1947, is the establishment of Jewish settlements, the Kibbutzim, with the encouragement of such Jewish institutions as the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association,* the Palestine Land Development Company and the Jewish National Fund. The purpose of these three institutions was to transfer the Jewish populations of Europe to Palestine and provide them with facilities, homes, jobs and especially land in the new host country. It has been estimated that by about June 1947, the Jewish minority in Palestine had taken over 1,850,000 dunams** out of a total of 13 million dunams, mainly as a result of transactions between the above-mentioned Jewish institutions and the big Arab landowners of Palestine.3/

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208638/


https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208638/

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Israel don't have to just defeat Hamas. They also need to send a message to Hezbollah. And Israel does it by sending a message to Lebanon civilians. The message to Lebanon mother is that if your son goes to Hezbollah, you, not just your son, will be killed. The message to Lebanon wife is that if your husband joins Hezbollah, you and your little baby - not just your husband - will be killed. The message to Lebanon man is that if you join Hezbollah, your elderly parents - not just you - will be killed. And sending this message is the best way to keep the world safe from scum like Hezbollah and Hamas.

Wow. You’ve got some serious bloodlust.

Nodding approvingly at the genocide of Native Americans and now this call for collective punishment.

Sad.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So what Hamas did on October 7 was… terrorism? or war? and how are you defining the line between what is valid and what isn’t?



Syria also accounts for one of the largest humanitarian responses period, of which this group is a contributor.

There have been plenty of international protests against Assad. You could look them up.

Were the UN hypocrites when they accused Assad of crimes against humanity?

I’m just not sure why, instead of actually facing the reality of what the Israeli government is, people would rather attempt to discredit the WHO, the UN, Amnesty International, UNICEF, etc. Why is it so hard? Do you honestly believe that every international body is out to get Israel and they couldn’t possibly be doing anything wrong?

I see it as war, everything Hamas does is war, the rockets all of it, they are a state of sorts waging war on their neighbour.

I don't really think of terrorism as any different from war, I certainly don't think of it as being 'worse' or 'better', there was no difference between 9/11 and us bombing Germany

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Wow. You’ve got some serious bloodlust.

Nodding approvingly at the genocide of Native Americans and now this call for collective punishment.

Sad.

It's really easy for us in our safe comfortable lives here in N America to decry Israelis who are living in a war that they never started, who get to watch the victims families on TV every night, know that 30 or 40 miles away 2 million people were happy to cheer on the butchery and rape of Israeli kids.

I have many issues with Israel and its treatment of Palestinians over the years but their reaction to the 6th, that I understand

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I see it as war, everything Hamas does is war, the rockets all of it, they are a state of sorts waging war on their neighbour.

I don't really think of terrorism as any different from war, I certainly don't think of it as being 'worse' or 'better', there was no difference between 9/11 and us bombing Germany

I can respect that. At least it’s honest and consistent.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It's really easy for us in our safe comfortable lives here in N America to decry Israelis who are living in a war that they never started, who get to watch the victims families on TV every night, know that 30 or 40 miles away 2 million people were happy to cheer on the butchery and rape of Israeli kids.

I have many issues with Israel and its treatment of Palestinians over the years but their reaction to the 6th, that I understand

It is easy. That’s our privilege. And it’s also the job of people outside the conflict and without bias to be the voices of reason. What we’re seeing now is people turning on and trying to condemn/discredit voices of reason because those people want blood and won’t tolerate anyone who tries to stand in their way.

Is that understandable? Sure. That doesn’t mean it should go without criticism or be celebrated.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Wow. You’ve got some serious bloodlust.

Nodding approvingly at the genocide of Native Americans and now this call for collective punishment.

Sad.

It's scary stuff, to be honest.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Wow. You’ve got some serious bloodlust.

Nodding approvingly at the genocide of Native Americans and now this call for collective punishment.

Sad.

Not a bloodlust really. I want less blood long term. The only way forward is to make people understand, that housing a terrorist organization in your country, let alone elect them in your government, will bring serious consequences to you, not only to them. I would have taken different stance if I saw Gazan civilians being terrified, rather than elated, at dead Israelis paraded on the streets. However, this is an eye opener for those, who believe that civilians are one thing and Hamas is another thing altogether. They are all one, they are united by one goal and one hate. Who is cooking food for Hamas fighters? Who is treating their wounds? Who is teaching their kids to hate Jews? The so called civilians. The whole Gaza population is rotten to bones. It's not a healthy population with Hamas being few bad apples that you can surgically remove.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Wow. You’ve got some serious bloodlust.

Nodding approvingly at the genocide of Native Americans and now this call for collective punishment.

Sad.

Where did I approve genocide of native Americans? If anything, I am one of very few people on this board, who is not living on the land stolen from native Americans.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Where did I approve genocide of native Americans? If anything, I am one of very few people on this board, who is not living on the land stolen from native Americans.

That's sort of a good point actually. In terms of "we were here first" for the Middle East in 100% of places the answer is "it's complicated". The Jews were there thousands of years ago and bought back in 100 years ago, but the Arabs had it for a long time in the middle and there were like 15 ownership changes all of which involved armed conquest.

Here there was basically 1 ownership change. The natives had it and then Canada took it. Not much nuance there.

[Manhattanboy]

Rex Murphy:

https://apple.news/AG3Gi3aMaTVyn2DYbZmGhIA

“Anywhere else, any other democratic state, put under an equal, proportionate horror, wounded to its very foundation, would have magnetized the attention of the world, called forth tribute visits and delegations from world leaders, and vast public lamentations for the killed and tortured and kidnapped. The dear, dead-to-its-purpose United Nations would have hauled itself from its slumbers and packed off “special rapporteurs” by the dozens to document and denounce a vile horror. TV networks — perhaps even the CBC if it could find its way around to the proper terminology, evidently a real test for Tait — would every day since (like 9/11) be giving fresh detail, doing “specials” with those spared, but whose children, babies, and elderly parents were either taken, tortured or killed.
And Hamas, or its equivalent in this projection, would be deplored, condemned, sought out and brought to retribution.
This has emphatically not been the case. Why?
Because it happened in Israel. The still-infant state of Jews. And so it comes to pass that just a month-plus after the terror-raid, so many of the great capitals of the world are the scene of huge demonstrations, all coherently organized and simultaneous — not in solidarity with Israel and its citizens, but thick with raging antisemites, mouthing accusations at Israel as (these are truly vicious and meant to wound) perpetrating a genocide, its president as an avatar of Hitler himself, mocking the dead, and chanting “from the river to the sea,” an only slightly muffled call for the full end of the Jewish state.“

[Pointman]

Ok, now to solution. Two state solution will not work. That being said, ethnostates are not sustainable long term. And on top of this, there's no God. Due to this, Israel as Jewish religious ethnostate is not a solution either. The only way forward is one, not two, state, that is secular and multinational. Israelis and Palestinians can live peacefully in one state, as we see in Israel. I write this on the bus, and Arabian woman is sitting across an aisle from me. Now, we also see that Palestinians and Jews can NOT live together in peace in two different states. So, one state solution, that is secural multinational democratic Israel is the way forward.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I can respect that. At least it’s honest and consistent.



It is easy. That’s our privilege. And it’s also the job of people outside the conflict and without bias to be the voices of reason. What we’re seeing now is people turning on and trying to condemn/discredit voices of reason because those people want blood and won’t tolerate anyone who tries to stand in their way.

Is that understandable? Sure. That doesn’t mean it should go without criticism or be celebrated.

I don't think there is any reason to be found in this conflict to be honest, I do not see any solution that will end this and I'm not sure there is a solution now that would be equitable or sellable to either side, any kind of free 'Palestine' will be tiny and poverty stricken and will have to rely on a rich middle class Israel for any kind of economy, Israel is also tiny, I think we tend to forget this when we bandy about solutions, it's about 20km from the beach at Tel Aviv to the border of the West Bank, 40 from the beach at Ashkelon, 80km from the beach at Haifa to the Golan Heights, I keep mentioning the beach because that's what utter annihilation means for Israel, to be pushed 10 or 20kms into the sea, Israel will never give up the West Bank because that gives them an extra 30kms of life, most importantly it gives then a river they can oppose the crossings of and some high ground between them and death, and lets not pretend it wouldn't be death, the end of Israel would be a slaughter of unprecedented numbers, they dont have the space to retreat, if they lose it is over on day one for all Israelis

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Rex Murphy:

https://apple.news/AG3Gi3aMaTVyn2DYbZmGhIA

“Anywhere else, any other democratic state, put under an equal, proportionate horror, wounded to its very foundation, would have magnetized the attention of the world, called forth tribute visits and delegations from world leaders, and vast public lamentations for the killed and tortured and kidnapped. The dear, dead-to-its-purpose United Nations would have hauled itself from its slumbers and packed off “special rapporteurs” by the dozens to document and denounce a vile horror. TV networks — perhaps even the CBC if it could find its way around to the proper terminology, evidently a real test for Tait — would every day since (like 9/11) be giving fresh detail, doing “specials” with those spared, but whose children, babies, and elderly parents were either taken, tortured or killed.
And Hamas, or its equivalent in this projection, would be deplored, condemned, sought out and brought to retribution.
This has emphatically not been the case. Why?
Because it happened in Israel. The still-infant state of Jews. And so it comes to pass that just a month-plus after the terror-raid, so many of the great capitals of the world are the scene of huge demonstrations, all coherently organized and simultaneous — not in solidarity with Israel and its citizens, but thick with raging antisemites, mouthing accusations at Israel as (these are truly vicious and meant to wound) perpetrating a genocide, its president as an avatar of Hitler himself, mocking the dead, and chanting “from the river to the sea,” an only slightly muffled call for the full end of the Jewish state.“

This would probably ring a little less hollow if you didn’t post it directly after a pro-Israel poster called for targeted acts of violence against Palestinian and Lebanese civilians while referring to the entire population of Gaza as “rotten to the bone”

[Doctorfever]

Nm

[Pointman]

Two-state solution is like re-creating USA-USSR rivalry on local scale. That nearly led to a nuclear war. And the world became a safer place the day USSR dissolved.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This would probably ring a little less hollow if you didn’t post it directly after a pro-Israel poster called for targeted acts of violence against Palestinian and Lebanese civilians while referring to the entire population of Gaza as “rotten to the bone”

How do you describe a population, that is cheering to Oct 7th massacre?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I don't think there is any reason to be found in this conflict to be honest, I do not see any solution that will end this and I'm not sure there is a solution now that would be equitable or sellable to either side, any kind of free 'Palestine' will be tiny and poverty stricken and will have to rely on a rich middle class Israel for any kind of economy, Israel is also tiny, I think we tend to forget this when we bandy about solutions, it's about 20km from the beach at Tel Aviv to the border of the West Bank, 40 from the beach at Ashkelon, 80km from the beach at Haifa to the Golan Heights, I keep mentioning the beach because that's what utter annihilation means for Israel, to be pushed 10 or 20kms into the sea, Israel will never give up the West Bank because that gives them an extra 30kms of life, most importantly it gives then a river they can oppose the crossings of and some high ground between them and death, and lets not pretend it wouldn't be death, the end of Israel would be a slaughter of unprecedented numbers, they dont have the space to retreat, if they lose it is over on day one for all Israelis

This. And the reason why Israel holds on Golan Heights is because those Heights control the whole Galilee. From there one can shell Haifa and pretty much whole north. If we give it up, because UN so demands, there will be no UN forces to protect us from the annihilation. Much like there were no UN forces to stop Hamas on Oct 7th. People, whose borders are protected by oceans and the only neighbor is USA can't quite understand it.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Two-state solution is like re-creating USA-USSR rivalry on local scale. That nearly led to a nuclear war. And the world became a safer place the day USSR dissolved.

Did it?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

How do you describe a population, that is cheering to Oct 7th massacre?

I don’t. But I know those members of the population cheering are no different than you, based on the views you’ve expressed.

You’ll make excuses for why it’s not OK for them to cheer while you go online to fantasize about killing Lebanese women and babies, you’ll bend over backwards to say it isn’t what you want but it’s what is “required,” or whatever, but at the end of the day you’re no different than them.

But whatever you call yourself, and whatever you should actually be called, I’m not going to ascribe it to the entire Israeli population.

[Snuffleupagus]

WARNING: