Israel declares war on Hamas

[Manhattanboy]

Vivian Silver, a Canadian Israeli peace activist whose family said they believed was taken hostage from her home in southern Israel when Hamas-led militants carried out a surprise assault on Oct. 7, was killed in the initial attacks, her family confirms.
Silver's son, Yonatan Zeigen, confirmed his mother's death, telling CBC News on Monday that the 74-year-old's remains had been found earlier at Kibbutz Be'eri, where she resided, but were only identified now, more than five weeks after the attacks.
At least 120 other men, women and children were killed in the community of about 1,100 people located just kilometres from the Israel-Gaza border.

https://apple.news/AjntPL78rRDG3vwy9IxU-UA

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Hamas actions are so indefensible, that instead of arguing for anything related to the war (which is, as you can see above, the topic of the thread), you have to resort to arguing that not everyone who asks for bombing to stop is antisemitic.

Considering the endless number of times that accusation has been thrown around in this thread for about that level of criticism, it would be extremely weird and manipulative to suddenly pretend that it was off-topic and misrepresent Q’s response as having anything to do with running out of ways to “defend Hamas.”

Wouldn’t be the first time you were purposefully manipulative, but you’re free to make it the last since I don’t really think people are buying that whole schtick at this point.

Or are Israel’s actions so indefensible that you have to resort to criticizing the WHO and UN on unrelated grounds (which is, as you can see above, are not the topic of the thread)?

[Pointman]

Israel don't have to just defeat Hamas. They also need to send a message to Hezbollah. And Israel does it by sending a message to Lebanon civilians. The message to Lebanon mother is that if your son goes to Hezbollah, you, not just your son, will be killed. The message to Lebanon wife is that if your husband joins Hezbollah, you and your little baby - not just your husband - will be killed. The message to Lebanon man is that if you join Hezbollah, your elderly parents - not just you - will be killed. And sending this message is the best way to keep the world safe from scum like Hezbollah and Hamas.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Israel did offer Gaza to Egypt some decades back, and Egypt declined. Nobody wants to deal with this hell hole.

Yeah - I realize the Egyptians don't want it. A key portion of the plan is providing sufficient economic aid bribing to make it worth their while.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Israel don't have to just defeat Hamas. They also need to send a message to Hezbollah. And Israel does it by sending a message to Lebanon civilians. The message to Lebanon mother is that if your son goes to Hezbollah, you, not just your son, will be killed. The message to Lebanon wife is that if your husband joins Hezbollah, you and your little baby - not just your husband - will be killed. The message to Lebanon man is that if you join Hezbollah, your elderly parents - not just you - will be killed. And sending this message is the best way to keep the world safe from scum like Hezbollah and Hamas.

I wonder how someone would describe this kind of thing?

the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants (mostly civilians and neutral military personnel)

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Considering the endless number of times that accusation has been thrown around in this thread for about that level of criticism, it would be extremely weird and manipulative to suddenly pretend that it was off-topic and misrepresent Q’s response as having anything to do with running out of ways to “defend Hamas.”

Wouldn’t be the first time you were purposefully manipulative, but you’re free to make it the last since I don’t really think people are buying that whole schtick at this point.

Or are Israel’s actions so indefensible that you have to resort to criticizing the WHO and UN on unrelated grounds (which is, as you can see above, are not the topic of the thread)?

Not really, I just addressed the post about whether UN and WHO are calling for ceasefire because they are antisemitic. I also didn't really see many accusations of anti semitism in this thread. Conversely, I saw pro-Palestenian guys claiming that not everyone who criticize Israel is antisemitic. This claim is actually correct.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I wonder how someone would describe this kind of thing?

Keeping the world safe from madmen terrorists cells is neither political nor ideological aim.

[Pointman]

However, I would like to address it further, if you will. When Hamas was parading hostages and corpses on Gaza streets, it was ordinary civilians, who were ALL cheering. Not a single one tried to stop it or, at least, was terrified by inevitable consequences. This, in my view, is the root of the problem. We need to make sure, that if Hezbollah will kill Jews and parade their bodies in Beirut, civilians will be not cheering, but rather scared to hell about what is going to be next. Hamas guys were calling their parents bragging about how they killed Jews. If they knew their parents would respond like "Oh, idiot, what have you done, weall will be bombed soon", this horror would not have happened.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Yeah - I realize the Egyptians don't want it. A key portion of the plan is providing sufficient economic aid bribing to make it worth their while.

There isn't enough money in the world that you could pay the current crappy Egyptian Government to take on what would bring their regime down and see them executed by the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas in 6 months time, if you want to defuse Gaza the whole world needs to offer to take a few thousand here a few thousand there as refugees, the Gazans that leave get a much much better life, Gaza ends up with maybe a 500,000 population who want to be there that can actually create a reasonable life for themselves

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I wonder how someone would describe this kind of thing?

historically since the 19th century we have just called it war

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

historically since the 19th century we have just called it war

We actually call it terrorism.

[Manhattanboy]

Population of Jews in the world: 16.1 million, 0.2%
Population of Muslims in the world: 1.8 billion, 23%

Where was the outrage, the protests, the social media warriors when tens of thousands of Syrians were killed and injured and hundred of thousands more displaced under Bashir Al Assad’s watch. How is he still in power? Why isn’t he being tried for crimes against humanity?

[Manhattanboy]

The WHO and the UN are ####ing hypocrites.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Population of Jews in the world: 16.1 million, 0.2%
Population of Muslims in the world: 1.8 billion, 23%

Where was the outrage, the protests, the social media warriors when tens of thousands of Syrians were killed and injured and hundred of thousands more displaced under Bashir Al Assad’s watch. How is he still in power? Why isn’t he being tried for crimes against humanity?

Where was your outrage?

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Where was your outrage?

It was there. At the time I actually thought Israel should have intervened to topple the Assad regime.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

We actually call it terrorism.

war is terrorism, that's the whole point of war, it is estimated we killed 1.5 million N Koreans in 1952, mostly using the firebomb tactics that we used to kill 900,000 Japanese Civilians in WW2, we had really perfected them by the '50s, with the advent of modern economies no one is a civilian anymore, we are all valid targets

[Manhattanboy]

By the way did you know that Soup for Syrians, a local group providing food and essentials to Syrian refugees who landed in Calgary was founded by local Jewish women? Its not all that relevant to the current discussion but they did good work at the time and had lots of support from the Calgary community.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

war is terrorism, that's the whole point of war, it is estimated we killed 1.5 million N Koreans in 1952, mostly using the firebomb tactics that we used to kill 900,000 Japanese Civilians in WW2, we had really perfected them by the '50s, with the advent of modern economies no one is a civilian anymore, we are all valid targets

So what Hamas did on October 7 was… terrorism? or war? and how are you defining the line between what is valid and what isn’t?

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

By the way did you know that Soup for Syrians, a local group providing food and essentials to Syrian refugees who landed in Calgary was founded by local Jewish women? Its not all that relevant to the current discussion but they did good work at the time and had lots of support from the Calgary community.

Syria also accounts for one of the largest humanitarian responses period, of which this group is a contributor.

There have been plenty of international protests against Assad. You could look them up.

Were the UN hypocrites when they accused Assad of crimes against humanity?

I’m just not sure why, instead of actually facing the reality of what the Israeli government is, people would rather attempt to discredit the WHO, the UN, Amnesty International, UNICEF, etc. Why is it so hard? Do you honestly believe that every international body is out to get Israel and they couldn’t possibly be doing anything wrong?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Pointman

7. New free Palestine elects Hamas 2.0 on their very first elections. We have seen this movie before. That being said, I appreciate trying to provide some way forward instead of just arguing with the other side.

The idea behind an equal Palestinian state, with a constitutional congress overseen by a third party, is that it should be independent and have its own army, courts, and other paraphernalia of centralized, strong governance that makes irregulars like Hezbollah and Hamas untenable within its borders. The idea that you can keep the Palestinians weak and divided enough to "destroy terrorism" fails precisely because the weak and divided are susceptible to violent extremists who promise strength and unity.

Lebanon has never been the same since the Israelis invaded it in the 1980s, the south is an ungovernable chaos that they periodically raid or invade with no long-term plan other than hoping it will magically stop breeding the disaffected. Instead of learning from this, they've doubled down on it by making Gaza a ghetto and the West Bank a defacto occupation zone. While it doesn't excuse the actions of Hamas, who are a death cult of vile, reprehensible fanatics, Israel has chosen violence in preference to peace and is no longer fighting against terrorism but instead promulgating its own, less virulent but still abhorrent terror brand.

There are no easy solutions - building a prosperous, independent Palestine would likely take decades and would require outside capital (hence the reparations, which would not only be symbolic of Israel acknowledging that they owe a debt for taking Palestinian land, especially Gaza, but necessary to build a strong state that isn't beholden to Iranian or Saudi money) and vast, painful effort. However, the best time to start a long-term project is always now.

The fascist Netanyahu will never do this, certainly. The Israelis look to keep going down this self-destructive path, eventually ending up in the same place as their enemies, just with a different flag. Peace is "impossible", so instead it'll be permanent war.

[Pointman]

Makes me wonder what the world would do to Russia, if all Russians would be cheering for Ukrainian invasion and parading raped dead Ukrainian girls on Red Square. My guess is that the world would strive to eliminate Russia - not just Putin - for good.