Israel declares war on Hamas

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by RobotTalk

So the fun part about international law is that there actually are legal, written definitions of what constitutes war crimes and what doesn't, including the use of human shields. In this case, according to the Third Geneva Convention, it's the use of human shields and not the targeting of facilities that they're protecting, provided those facilities are legitimate military targets, that constitutes a war crime.

So yes, there is a war crime being committed, but it's Hamas that's committing it and not Israel, that is, if you're interested in long standing legal definitions and not made up standards.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/cu...-ihl/v1/rule97

I, and others in this very thread, have been readily stating that Hamas are terrorists and have committed war crimes against innocent, civilian population. The difference in what we've been saying though - and something that some refuse to admit to - is that Israel may have also committed war crimes. For them, it's all on one side.

New York-based Human Rights Watch cited as possible war crimes the deliberate targeting of civilians, indiscriminate rocket attacks, and the taking of civilians as hostages by Palestinian armed groups, as well as the Israeli counter-strikes in Gaza that have killed thousands of Palestinians.

The taking of hostages, murder and torture are explicitly banned under the Geneva Conventions, while Israel's response could also be subject to a war crimes investigation.

Hamas militants stormed from Gaza into nearby southwestern Israeli communities on Oct. 7 and killed about 1,400 people, most of them civilians, in one day. They also took about 240 hostages back to the small, Hamas-ruled enclave.

In response, Israel laid siege to Gaza, home to 2.3 million people, and launched the most powerful bombing campaign in the 75-year-old history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, destroying entire neighbourhoods. Israeli ground forces then swept into Gaza at the end of last week with the stated aim of annihilating Hamas, with air strikes continuing.

Following aerial bombings of Gaza's Jabalia refugee camp this week, in which Israel said it targeted and killed two senior Hamas commanders, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights cited concern that Israel's srikes were "disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes".

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ct-2023-11-02/

[Bagor]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720486231690059912

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I presume the wholly predictable part you refer to is the ongoing ignoring of international law and the state sponsored terrorism and murders that happen there.

It's not an "outcome". It's always been an issue. Unless you're describing the outcome to be an escalation of the already happening state sponsored violence, murders and displacement.

There is no such thing as 'international law', I would have thought every single war for the last 50 years would have proved that, 300,000 dead Yemani's, 500,000 to a million Iraqi's depending on how you county the bodies.

All wars kill mostly civilians, all modern wars kill hundreds of thousands of civilians, no country, I mean absolutely no country at all has ever given a toss about civilian lives in a war, we don't, they don't, no one does

[FlameOn]

Canadian Islamic school students poem from the London Islamic School calling for Israel to be banned

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720143348587958552

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Canadian Islamic school students poem from the London Islamic School calling for Israel to be banned

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720143348587958552

They should live by those sentiments and hand the school over to the nearest native band, 'from the pacific to East, natives should be released'

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

There is no such thing as 'international law',

Sorry. What?
So, you're saying the settlements are legal then?
That the International Court of Justice is a nothing?
Wiki.

The international community regards both territories as held under Israeli occupation and the localities established there to be illegal settlements. The International Court of Justice found the settlements to be illegal in its 2004 advisory opinion on the West Bank barrier.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Sorry. What?
So, you're saying the settlements are legal then?
That the International Court of Justice is a nothing?
Wiki.

The world has no effective means of enforcing law above the nation-state. So whatever is or isn’t legal according to the International Court of Justice is just words. Countries can and do ignore them every day without consequences.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Sorry. What?
So, you're saying the settlements are legal then?
That the International Court of Justice is a nothing?
Wiki.

there is only one overriding principal of international law 'might is right' if no one can stop you a country can do whatever the eff it wants

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Sorry. What?
So, you're saying the settlements are legal then?
That the International Court of Justice is a nothing?
Wiki.

Even the law around the settlements is very murky. Law forbids transferring a population into an area you've gained via military conflict. Transferring is entirely different than a population choosing to move over time. There's certainly nothing illegal about a population naturally growing over time, and no international laws support removing a half million people who are already there for being the wrong ethnicity.

And why is 1948, immediately after Jordan expelled all the Jews, the starting point?

Next, the land was taken from Jordan, who had annexed it. Israel signed a peace treaty with Jordan who didn't ask for it back.

Countries are also allowed to redefine their borders in the midst of armed conflict. Israel has no obligation to unilaterally withdraw to a less defensible border, when there are constantly armed men knocking on their door and trying to push them into the sea.

What other countries just gave all the land back after the countries that invaded them lost and refused to recognize them or sue for peace?

I 100% agree that settlements are an obstacle to peace and an act of aggression. However are they "illegal". Who has jurisdiction there?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The world has no effective means of enforcing law above the nation-state. So whatever is or isn’t legal according to the International Court of Justice is just words. Countries can and do ignore them every day without consequences.

Sort of. But a huge part of what the US sees as giving itself legitimacy for its hegemony is the idea of it creating and caretaking a "rules-based international order." Obviously the US picks and chooses what rules it should itself follow, and they have no problem backing criminals when it meets their strategic objectives.

But maintaining that facade of order is important to the image that the US projects, and this is growing even more important as they try to prevent China's ascent. So the US's policy is absolutely going to take that into account, and they're already cautioning Israel about the fallout of their actions:

President Joe Biden and his top advisers are warning Israel with growing force that it will become increasingly difficult for it to pursue its military goals in Gaza as global outcry intensifies about the scale of humanitarian suffering there.

Biden, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Secretary of State Antony Blinken – who departed Thursday for Israel with a message on protecting civilian lives – have all explicitly pressed the case in recent private conversations with the Israelis, telling them that eroding support will have dire strategic consequences for Israel Defense Forces operations against Hamas.

Behind the scenes, American officials also believe there is limited time for Israel to try to accomplish its stated objective of taking out Hamas in its current operation before uproar over the humanitarian suffering and civilian casualties – and calls for a ceasefire – reaches a tipping point.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/polit...ans/index.html

[Pointman]

Anyone who writes that Israel has limited time because the outcry for Gaza suffering is about to reach a tipping point, is selling a false hope to Palestinians supporters. Israel does not need USA support to destroy Hamas. USA can only turn the tables if they suddenly switch sides and begin fighting for Hamas against Israel. But it's not going to happen.

And as long, as Hamas keeps hostages, Israel will respond with "You want ceasefire? Ok, just release hostages".

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

Even the law around the settlements is very murky. Law forbids transferring a population into an area you've gained via military conflict. Transferring is entirely different than a population choosing to move over time. There's certainly nothing illegal about a population naturally growing over time, and no international laws support removing a half million people who are already there for being the wrong ethnicity.

And why is 1948, immediately after Jordan expelled all the Jews, the starting point?

Next, the land was taken from Jordan, who had annexed it. Israel signed a peace treaty with Jordan who didn't ask for it back.

Countries are also allowed to redefine their borders in the midst of armed conflict. Israel has no obligation to unilaterally withdraw to a less defensible border, when there are constantly armed men knocking on their door and trying to push them into the sea.

What other countries just gave all the land back after the countries that invaded them lost and refused to recognize them or sue for peace?

I 100% agree that settlements are an obstacle to peace and an act of aggression. However are they "illegal". Who has jurisdiction there?

The International court of Justice has said they are illegal and many UN resolutions have said it is illegal. Ths is another example of when Israel does something, like blocking food and water, it becomes "complicated ". But of course even when the Palestinians fire their puny rockets it's the worst thing ever and Israel has the right to respond.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

The International court of Justice has said they are illegal and many UN resolutions have said it is illegal. Ths is another example of when Israel does something, like blocking food and water, it becomes "complicated ". But of course even when the Palestinians fire their puny rockets it's the worst thing ever and Israel has the right to respond.

You mean the UN that has adopted 148 resolutions against Israel since 2015 and 68 against all other countries combined. Considering what's going on in Russia, Syria, Sudan, Iran, China, Yemen, etc... you don't think that's an example of the UN making things "complicated" instead of doing their job.

The International Court of Justice is elected by the UN and cannot try a matter without UN approval. They are a mouth piece for the UN.

The only way to have any success in the UN is to bow to the Muslim and Russian voting blocks, who are largely awful dictatorship.

If the UN would actually focus on resolving conflict, instead of trying to undo the Arab loss in 1948/1967, we'd likely see some conflicts resolved.

And Hamas has done a lot more than fire puny rockets. I'm not going to rehash what happened on October 7 again, but that is what Israel is currently responding to.

Edit:

Here's the only part of the latest Israel resolution that the UN refused to adopt:

https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?Final...equested=False

Unequivocally rejects and condemns the terrorist attacks by Hamas that took place in Israel starting on 7 October 2023 and the taking of hostages, demands the safety, well-being and humane treatment of the hostages in compliance with international law, and calls for their immediate and unconditional release;

What possible hope of seeing legitimate does the UN have if they can't condemn hostage taking.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

You mean the UN that has adopted 148 resolutions against Israel since 2015 and 68 against all other countries combined. Considering what's going on in Russia, Syria, Sudan, Iran, China, Yemen, etc... you don't think that's an example of the UN making things "complicated" instead of doing their job.

The International Court of Justice is elected by the UN and cannot try a matter without UN approval. They are a mouth piece for the UN.

The only way to have any success in the UN is to bow to the Muslim and Russian voting blocks, who are largely awful dictatorship.

If the UN would actually focus on resolving conflict, instead of trying to undo the Arab loss in 1948/1967, we'd likely see some conflicts resolved.

And Hamas has done a lot more than fire puny rockets. I'm not going to rehash what happened on October 7 again, but that is what Israel is currently responding to.

Edit:

Here's the only part of the latest Israel resolution that the UN refused to adopt:

https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?Final...equested=False



What possible hope of seeing legitimate does the UN have if they can't condemn hostage taking.

Oh, so now we shouldn't listen to the UN or the International Court of Justice because obviously anyone criticizing Israel has a bias. We definitely shouldn't listen to the Palestinians.So basically the only party who gets to decide what is right or wrong in this conflict is Israel itself. Perfect.

[Language]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

The International court of Justice has said they are illegal and many UN resolutions have said it is illegal. Ths is another example of when Israel does something, like blocking food and water, it becomes "complicated ". But of course even when the Palestinians fire their puny rockets it's the worst thing ever and Israel has the right to respond.

Israel blocking food and water shouldn’t actually be complicated for anyone to understand. Israel should be under no obligation to provide anything to its enemy state. It’s insane anyone can think otherwise.

The Palestinians, more than anyone else in recent memory, continue to self sabotage themselves to a head-shaking degree. They’re going to be stuck in perpetual misery because their leadership can’t get their head out of their ass. Ridiculous levels of apathy for their own people, and they’ve even admitted it continuously over the last week in interviews.

And yes - anyone relying on UN resolutions as evidence of anything should instantly be ignored. Iran just assuming the position of head of the Human Rights Council should be one of many many reasons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Language

Israel blocking food and water shouldn’t actually be complicated for anyone to understand. Israel should be under no obligation to provide anything to its enemy state. It’s insane anyone can think otherwise.

Call me crazy, but if it an Iran, or Russia,or North Korea starved a population of over two million with half of them being kids, people wouldn't be so quick to say that is perfectly ok. It is almost 2024 and some actually think that starving a population is ok. That's what is insane.

[afc wimbledon]

You guys are wholly missing the point, no one is saying anything is ok, what we are saying is no country cares about what the UN says, Hamas aren't about to hand over the 1500 or so fighters plus all of their upper administration because international law says slaughtering 1400 Israelis is illegal under international law, they don't give a bolloxs about international law, no one does its utterly meaningless you might as well argue Jesus doesn't like it, its about as useful.

International law is something winning countries force on losing countries as a final bit of humiliation after they kicked them to the curb and taken what ever territory they want, it's what we did to Serbia because we beat them, until Hamas can beat Israel international law doesn't apply

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Call me crazy, but if it an Iran, or Russia,or North Korea starved a population of over two million with half of them being kids, people wouldn't be so quick to say that is perfectly ok. It is almost 2024 and some actually think that starving a population is ok. That's what is insane.

See here's the thing, in most wars when you know you have lost and all you are going to do is get tens of thousands of your people killed you surrender to save innocent lives, in fact one of the earliest forms of 'international law' dating back to medieval times was if you surrender your civilians are spared, of course in most wars you don't commit a heinous act of brutal savagery on an enemy that you know will utterly eviscerate your civilian population afterwards in an attempt to track your savage rapey troops down.

The truth is all of this is exactly what Hamas wants, this was always their plan, to get as many Gazans, preferably women and children, killed by Israel as possible as they were starting to lose the attention of the Muslim world, the one thing I do feel sorry for Palestinians for is no one gives a tinkers about them, Hamas doesnt, more dead kids is what they want, Iran doesnt, no one does, they are just sacrificial pawns in the fight between West and East, Shia and Sunni.

[Zarley]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720470778997518801

[Mr.Coffee]

That picture would make more sense if “Israel defending itself” didn’t include a genocide of the opposition but sure, whatever.

People really struggle with the concept of proportional response.