Israel declares war on Hamas

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720410242809258423

[Pointman]

Surpringly timid speech by Hezbollah's leader. Unless it's a disguise, it's basically surrender.

[Azure]

Total distances Hezbollah from Hamas and Iran. Claims he had no clue about the attack.

100% Hamas.

Iran doesn't control them.

Etc, etc.

His speech is less inflammatory than what you see from protests on the streets of Canada. Insane.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by activeStick

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720179318872064240

Thanks Yoho.
Any commentary on the clip?

[CaptainCrunch]

This whole thing is written like a story of an insane asylum. You have Israel bombing and destroying infrastructure with a mandate of wiping out Hamas for now and forever, telling Palestinians to flee south, and bombing there as well.

You have Hamas machine gunning Palestinians who try to flee south.


(Sorry added not safe for work tabs as its extremely graphic)

NSFW!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720457311951499372

I am all for the release of the hostages, the removal of Hamas as a viable entity (Which is never going to happen). But jesus christ, this is insane. I think at the end of the day, the only people that can solve this is the Palestinians, that literally have to start killing Hamas members and forcing them out of the strip.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Surpringly timid speech by Hezbollah's leader. Unless it's a disguise, it's basically surrender.

They are scared ####less of Turkey, they aint moving troops out of the North

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

They are scared ####less of Turkey, they aint moving troops out of the North

To be honest, I hadn't even thought about Turkey's role in all of this as a clamp on Hezbollah.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I'm increasingly of the view that the real division here is - or ought to be - between those who believe in peace and likely a two state solution, and those who believe in ethnic cleansing.



I think Hamas and Netanyahu's ilk both fall into the latter camp, and they should be rejected by decent people everywhere. How any reasonable person can look at those images - whether of kids killed in Israel or kids killed in Gaza - and think that their deaths is justified is beyond me.

Do you think a two-state solution really changes anything though? It's not like it means that they will accept Israel's right to exist just because they have their own state. I just don't see how it changes anything in practice.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Thanks Yoho.
Any commentary on the clip?

I assume you're asking me since you quoted me? Why did you call me Yoho? With their reputation on the board, I assume it's to take a shot at me? But okay.

Didn't think the video needed commentary since she's pretty clear, but I agree with her point that even if we agree that Hamas is using citizens as human shields, bombing hospitals, refugee camps and southern Gaza where Palestinians have been told to go are still war crimes.

There is a better way that spares more innocent lives. To some of us, at least.

[Bagor]

Meanwhile in the West Bank.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720214205473636437

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To be honest, I hadn't even thought about Turkey's role in all of this as a clamp on Hezbollah.

Turkey is the controlling power behind the Free Syrian Army that controls large swathes of Northern Syria, Turkey has returned to it's islamic roots if you will and seems keen to overtake SA as the regional Sunni superpower all of which is bad news for a Shia controlled Lebanon

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Meanwhile in the West Bank.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720214205473636437

this was always going to be the outcome, there isnt any pathway for opposition that doesnt end up in loss of life and land, sucks but wholly predictable

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You have Hamas machine gunning Palestinians who try to flee south.


(Sorry added not safe for work tabs as its extremely graphic)

I've seen this clip multiple times now with the vast majority claiming that the bodies are a result of Israeli action. I didn't repost it as I wasn't sure.

It appears that you seem sure that Hamas is responsible for this particular slaughter. What do you base this off?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

this was always going to be the outcome, there isnt any pathway for opposition that doesnt end up in loss of life and land, sucks but wholly predictable

Yeah, every time they choose war, the deal for them gets worse. The original partition plan for a two-state solution had Arabs with 80% of the land, and Jews with 20%. Rightly or wrongly, Israel never leaves them with the status quo at the conclusion of a conflict. After this one, I don't see a two-state solution as a viable option. Gaza had the opportunity to build an independent city state, but chose Hamas who has no interest in it. As they said themselves, they want all of Israel still.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

this was always going to be the outcome, there isnt any pathway for opposition that doesnt end up in loss of life and land, sucks but wholly predictable

I presume the wholly predictable part you refer to is the ongoing ignoring of international law and the state sponsored terrorism and murders that happen there.

It's not an "outcome". It's always been an issue. Unless you're describing the outcome to be an escalation of the already happening state sponsored violence, murders and displacement.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Do you think a two-state solution really changes anything though? It's not like it means that they will accept Israel's right to exist just because they have their own state. I just don't see how it changes anything in practice.

I think it must remain the target, the alternative objective being either the dismantling of Israel as a nation-state, or the cleansing of Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank.



I don't suggest that the establishment to two peaceful, co-existing nations is going to be an easy process or something that can be achieved in the near term. But it has to be the objective and that objective must come with the understanding that extremism and the eradication/expulsion/subjugation of either group is not acceptable.



I also don't suggest that a two-state resolution would involve only the work of Israel and the Palestinians. I think the involvement of third parties in the region or beyond over a period of at least a couple of generations will be required - there simply isn't enough trust for them to do it on their own.



If any good is to come out of the present conflict, I hope it will be a recognition that the human toll is not acceptable for either side, and that extremists on both sides - Hamas and Israelis who would happily see the West Bank absorbed and Gaza subjugated or its citizens pushed into Egypt - are the enemies of future generations of both regular Israeli and Palestinian civilians.

[blankall]

The only viable solutions are a two state solution or Egypt taking control of Gaza again. I don't see option two happening. Not only would it be contrary to the entire Arab league's position, but Egypt is fighting their own fundamentalist insurgency. The conflict with islamists in the Sinai, up until October 7, was killing more people than the one in Gaza

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by blankall

The only viable solutions are a two state solution or Egypt taking control of Gaza again. I don't see option two happening. Not only would it be contrary to the entire Arab league's position, but Egypt is fighting their own fundamentalist insurgency. The conflict with islamists in the Sinai, up until October 7, was killing more people than the one in Gaza

That's the thing, Hamas is also opposed to Egypt. The Hamas charter, declaration, or whatever you want to call it, states that Egypt is a traitor for making peace with Israel. Islamic fundamentalists kill more fellow Muslims than they do any other group of people. No country in the region wants to import their hang-ups.

[RobotTalk]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I assume you're asking me since you quoted me? Why did you call me Yoho? With their reputation on the board, I assume it's to take a shot at me? But okay.

Didn't think the video needed commentary since she's pretty clear, but I agree with her point that even if we agree that Hamas is using citizens as human shields, bombing hospitals, refugee camps and southern Gaza where Palestinians have been told to go are still war crimes.

There is a better way that spares more innocent lives. To some of us, at least.

So the fun part about international law is that there actually are legal, written definitions of what constitutes war crimes and what doesn't, including the use of human shields. In this case, according to the Third Geneva Convention, it's the use of human shields and not the targeting of facilities that they're protecting, provided those facilities are legitimate military targets, that constitutes a war crime.

So yes, there is a war crime being committed, but it's Hamas that's committing it and not Israel, that is, if you're interested in long standing legal definitions and not made up standards.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/cu...-ihl/v1/rule97

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Meanwhile in the West Bank.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1720214205473636437

At this point, if you still think it's all about Hamas it's because that's what you want to believe or that's what you want to portray.