Israel declares war on Hamas

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

My old foster son is now thinking as a Jew he will only be safe in Israel, my guess is the population of Israel will increase by a huge amount due to the barbarity of the attack on the 7th and the vast amount of anti sematic attacks around the world, the irony of this is it will put huge pressure on Israel to take more land in the West Bank

This whole situation has really exposed a lot of anti-jew sentiment. Thanks god outside of the Russian thing it hasn't exploded in violence.


I can't see how any Jew can feel totally safe especially on university campuses.

[FlameOn]

Thing is Palestinians used to have the backing of entire Arab world, but their radical elements have burned every ally, every supporting country on multiple occasions over 80 years of peace effort sabotages and attempted revolutionary actions in Middle East host countries. Most of the Middle East is sick of the radical Palestinian BS at this point, except Qatar, Yeman, and Iran at this point. Even those won't take Palestinians in.

I wonder if a post-WWII Nazi Germany deradicalization and investment rebuilding effort would be the best solution. It certainly seems like that's what the French seem to be pushing for with their efforts for an international peacekeeping force post-Hamas.

[PsYcNeT]

Lmao you people are delusional.

Any Jew who feels unsafe right now is buying into media fear mongering and alarmism.

I have to fly to Istanbul for work next week and my sister was freaking out because she's a weirdo Zionist. Of course, she is blonde, blue eyed and married a gentile so there's literally nothing Jewish about her but I had to listen to a tirade about how unsafe Europe is for Jews now.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

This whole situation has really exposed a lot of anti-jew sentiment. Thanks god outside of the Russian thing it hasn't exploded in violence.


I can't see how any Jew can feel totally safe especially on university campuses.

It's really sad what university campuses have become. They used to be about fostering debate and open discussion. Now, it's about organizing a mob and shouting as loud as you can. When that mob is directed at smaller numbers of students how is that not seen as threatening?

The mob in no way resembles a protest. They aren't standing outside of an embassy or corporate office ensuring that their voice is heard. They are shouting in a threatening manner at other students for the purpose of siliencing other students.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Lmao you people are delusional.

Any Jew who feels unsafe right now is buying into media fear mongering and alarmism.

Completely disagree. Jewish communities, especially in Europe, have had to go as far as hiring armed security outside of any institution that can be identified as Jewish. In the Western world, you shouldn't need an armed guard outside of a place of worship. That's an affront to everything democracy and freedom stands for.

Muslims and Arabs have similarly been the victims of hate. That child who was stabbed to death in the USA is the most obvious example, but there are many more.

For both Jews and Muslims/Arabs this conflict has stirred up all sorts of hate.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

I wonder if a post-WWII Nazi Germany deradicalization and investment rebuilding effort would be the best solution. It certainly seems like that's what the French seem to be pushing for with their efforts for an international peacekeeping force post-Hamas.

I think the key difference is that in Germany there wasn't a settler land grab. While Third party governments did take control, there did not try to push Germán people out of their homes ( *there are always exceptions*).

In Palestine, there seems to be an implicate expectation that Isreal is going to build suburbs over the piles of rubble they have created.

I talked earlier about there being a divide in this thread based on peoples experience with colonialism. Many Settlers cannot understand the pain that comes with being removed from your land, because they are yet to develop genealogical relationships with the territories that they live in.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Nobody in the Middle East will take them, especially if that package includes Hamas or any kind of radical element.


Egypt and Jordan have been pretty clear on this.

A large part of that is that purposely not resettling the Palestinians is part of the strategy to perpetuate the conflict.

Special rules were made up about what makes a Palestinian a "refugee". Anyone who had been in the border of Israel for 2 years or more or their descendants are considered Palestinian refugees. Palestinian refugee status is the only refugee status that you inherit from your ancestors.

The period of 2 years was chosen as it's short enough to basically include everyone, including many migrant workers who'd entered the Mandate of Palestine. Countries like Egypt then stripped the refugees of Egyptian citizenship and land and barred them from various professions so that they would remain unsettled.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by blankall

Completely disagree. Jewish communities, especially in Europe, have had to go as far as hiring armed security outside of any institution that can be identified as Jewish. In the Western world, you shouldn't need an armed guard outside of a place of worship. That's an affront to everything democracy and freedom stands for.

Muslims and Arabs have similarly been the victims of hate. That child who was stabbed to death in the USA is the most obvious example, but there are many more.

For both Jews and Muslims/Arabs this conflict has stirred up all sorts of hate.

I mean you're free to live a life of fear, but don't drag the rest of us down with you.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think the key difference is that in Germany there wasn't a settler land grab. While Third party governments did take control, there did not try to push Germán people out of their homes ( *there are always exceptions*).

In Palestine, there seems to be an implicate expectation that Isreal is going to build suburbs over the piles of rubble they have created.

I talked earlier about there being a divide in this thread based on peoples experience with colonialism. Many Settlers cannot understand the pain that comes with being removed from your land, because they are yet to develop genealogical relationships with the territories that they live in.

Quite the opposite. Huge swaths of German people were removed from areas all over Europe. The borders of Germany were entirely redrawn. The land area removed from German control was many times the total land area of Israel.

The Israeli/Palestinian issue is far more complex, with most Jewish Israelis being refugees from Arab/Muslim lands and Jews having a long history in the land of Israel.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I mean you're free to live a life of fear, but don't drag the rest of us down with you.

It's not just about full grown men, who don't wear any identifiable religious symbols, wandering around North America. There are far more vulnerable people around the world.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think the key difference is that in Germany there wasn't a settler land grab. While Third party governments did take control, there did not try to push Germán people out of their homes ( *there are always exceptions*).

In Palestine, there seems to be an implicate expectation that Isreal is going to build suburbs over the piles of rubble they have created.

For the West Bank this might be more of a problem. Gaza hasn't been land grabbed or settled and Israel evicted any remaining settlers there when Hamas took up shop. Since this is an international effort I would expect part of the deal post Hamas will be enforcement of existing borders.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think the key difference is that in Germany there wasn't a settler land grab. While Third party governments did take control, there did not try to push Germán people out of their homes ( *there are always exceptions*).

As Blankall pointed out this isn't true at all. All the area around Koningsberg was completely depopulated of Germans and replaced with Russians. The entire city was given to Russia and we have Kaliningrad today. There's the entire Eastern portion of Germany SE of Koningsberg that was given to Poland.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by blankall

Quite the opposite. Huge swaths of German people were removed from areas all over Europe. The borders of Germany were entirely redrawn. The land area removed from German control was many times the total land area of Israel.

The Israeli/Palestinian issue is far more complex, with most Jewish Israelis being refugees from Arab/Muslim lands and Jews having a long history in the land of Israel.

You're right, Ethnic Germans were removed en masse from eastern Europe and boarders were redrawn, but those were acute events. The Polish slaughter of cultural Germans after WW2 were horrific. But after the dust settled, the boarders were stabilized and there was not a continual flow of settlers encroaching further and further into Germany. Quite the opposite, many of the families forced from Poland have returned to their ancestral homes.


My original statement was not one of morality or justification, but one of understanding. Everyone knows that Jews have genealogical connections to the Levant. This can be true, while also understanding that Isreal have been forcing Palestinians out of there home in a process that has been on going to several decades.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

All the area around Koningsberg was completely depopulated of Germans and replaced with Russians. The entire city was given to Russia and we have Kaliningrad today. Also that entire Eastern portion of Germany was given to Poland.

Exactly. The German population of Koningsberg, which was about 400,000 people was obliterated in WWII. The surviving German population was moved into labour camps before being sent to live in the new German borders. They simply renamed the city, so it sounded more Russian, and moved in 400,000 Russian citizens over the course of about 3 years.

[Reggie28]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

More war crimes from Israel. Refugee camp bombed.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/middl...m_source=twCNN

An Israeli strike on the densely populated Jabalya
Refugee camp in northern Gaza caused many casualties, officials in the enclave said Tuesday.

I don’t know if Israel targeted and killed a Hamas commander with this attack or if they intentionally only bombed civilians, but I do find it rich that Egypt condemned the attack. If Egypt wanted to save lives, they would open the border with Palestine and accepted refugees.

Egypt has a population of 109 million, they could take in a million Palestinians, but they will not take any.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

My original statement was not one of morality or justification, but one of understanding. Everyone knows that Jews have genealogical connections to the Levant. This can be true, while also understanding that Isreal have been forcing Palestinians out of there home in a process that has been on going to several decades.

This is entirely what a two state peace solution was meant to address. A stabilization of national borders between both Palestine and Israel. It would have recognized both Israel and Palestinian thousand year connections to the area and established shared governance of Jerusalem proper. Palestine under would have been defined as all of Gaza, 95-97% of the West Bank with the remaining 3% under paid lease by any remaining settlers and the evicting of the remaining 500K illegal Jewish settlers. There would have been no more gradual encroachment and a lot of Jews would have had the pain of being removed from what they considered their land as well. Hamas torpedoed this effort and started a civil war to stop it. It was the best solution possible for the mess left by the British mandate and would have done a lot to stabilize the regions.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

This is entirely what a two state peace solution was meant to address. A stabilization of national borders between both Palestine and Israel. It would have recognized both Israel and Palestinian connections thousand year connections to the area and established shared governance of Jerusalem proper. Palestine under would have been defined as all of Gaza, 95-97% of the West Bank with the remaining 3% under paid lease by any remaining settlers and the evicting of the remaining 500K illegal Jewish settlers. There would have been no more gradual encroachment and a lot of Jews would have had to pain of being removed from what they considered their land as well. Hamas torpedoed this effort and started a civil war to stop it. It was the best solution possible for the mess left the British mandate and would have done a lot to stabilize the regions.

I think another key nuance is land mass. When Germen boarders were re drawn, there was a lot more land, and many fewer people.

Palestine is a pressure cooker.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

This whole situation has really exposed a lot of anti-jew sentiment. Thanks god outside of the Russian thing it hasn't exploded in violence.


I can't see how any Jew can feel totally safe especially on university campuses.

Cornell student charged with threatening to massacre Jewish students

The threats included vows to rape and throw off a cliff any Jewish females.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/1...dents-00124678

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think another key nuance is land mass. When Germen boarders were re drawn, there was a lot more land, and many fewer people.

Palestine is a pressure cooker.

I imagine getting the 500K infrastructure and homes from the settlers would have gone a long way towards decreasing the pressure and pop density in Gaza especially.

That is all a theoretical exercise now. The same offer is not likely to be on the table anymore after Hamas. What happens now is going to be up if Israel can dismantle Hamas, how Gaza is stabilized afterwards, and what Israel will be offering post all this. If Hamas survives or Hamas 2.0 springs up, it will be a forever war with many more dead Palestinians and Jews.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Lmao you people are delusional.

Any Jew who feels unsafe right now is buying into media fear mongering and alarmism.

There were also protest blockades demanding "boycott" and vandalism at Jewish businesses across the world over the last few weeks.