Blow it up!

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

How about let’s just start with commitment to building through the draft and stop signing old UFA’s.

I’m not necessarily on team “blow it up”. While trading your players for picks sounds awesome, I’m not exactly sure that winners get built that way. Being good at drafting and development is what matters most IMO.

Need to be good at drafting and development overall but this team is missing 2 key elements.

1C and 1D. Best way to get one of them is at the top of the draft.

You with home grown stars.

We are back to the Sutter GM era a team mostly built from trades and free agents. It can get you by but thats about it. Our drafted players are not the "stars" they are 3rd and 4th liners.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

How about let’s just start with commitment to building through the draft and stop signing old UFA’s.

I’m not necessarily on team “blow it up”. While trading your players for picks sounds awesome, I’m not exactly sure that winners get built that way. Being good at drafting and development is what matters most IMO.

Don’t having picks and drafting have a little bit to do with one another?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Need to be good at drafting and development overall but this team is missing 2 key elements.

1C and 1D. Best way to get one of them is at the top of the draft.

You with home grown stars.

We are back to the Sutter GM era a team mostly built from trades and free agents. It can get you by but thats about it. Our drafted players are not the "stars" they are 3rd and 4th liners.

I agree, but that isn't entirely accurate on the 3/4 liners. Coronato, Pelletier and Wolf are and should be treated as high end talent - any organization would take them and they would all likely be playing significant NHL roles instead of playing down the lineup or not all in Wolf's case.

The team would be developing better with higher draft picks if they committed to rebuilding. It's not like these lottery teams are that much better at drafting - they just have an entire cupboard of picks to chose from and make with some of the best players available.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I agree, but that isn't entirely accurate on the 3/4 liners. Coronato, Pelletier and Wolf are and should be treated as high end talent - any organization would take them and they would all likely be playing significant NHL roles instead of playing down the lineup or not all in Wolf's case.

The team would be developing better with higher draft picks if they committed to rebuilding. It's not like these lottery teams are that much better at drafting - they just have an entire cupboard of picks to chose from and make with some of the best players available.

They are good players, and Pelletier is injured not much you can do about that.

I am not sure subjecting Wolf to this disaster at the moment is the right thing.

We can get all the wingers we want but at the end of the day we need a elite #1C.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I agree, but that isn't entirely accurate on the 3/4 liners. Coronato, Pelletier and Wolf are and should be treated as high end talent - any organization would take them and they would all likely be playing significant NHL roles instead of playing down the lineup or not all in Wolf's case.

The team would be developing better with higher draft picks if they committed to rebuilding. It's not like these lottery teams are that much better at drafting - they just have an entire cupboard of picks to chose from and make with some of the best players available.

Coronato IS playing up the lineup. He is a good prospect, and will be a good player, but you are way over-selling him here.

Same argument for Pelletier, but even more so - he will be a decent to good player, but will likely top out as a middle 6 guy.

Both of those guys are good prospects that will continue to climb their way up the depth charts, but it is unlikely that either will be the kind of player that changes a team's fortunes.

Wolf is an argument for the future.

Yes, they need more prospects. But that doesn't mean or imply that they are doing anything wrong with these guys. Nor does it mean these guys would be better, or be doing better, if there were more prospects around.

[FlamesAddiction]

Even if they blow it up now, it won't be until the 2030s that this team will be able to compete again.

The typical rebuild scenario goes like this:

Years 1-5 - Bottom out and build through the draft, primarily with multiple high 1st round picks.

Then some time around years 3 to 5, if you drafted well, you have to start paying the players coming off of their ELCs. Around the same time, if you want to start pushing to compete, you need to start supplementing with free agents. This is where things will get stuck when you still have guys like Huberdeau eating up a significant part of the cap.

Let's say the best case scenario rebuild happens and the team bottoms out for a typical 3-5 year rebuild. Woops, we have to give up one of our 1st round picks to Montreal during that time, which extends the rebuild to the 4-6 year range. Then when the part of the rebuild happens where teams start to compete, they still have an absurd amount of money locked into useless and unmovable players.

It's a never ending circle. Because the team can't do a proper rebuild any time soon, they are going to keep trying to avoid it, and on and on the cycle goes.

[Teroy]

So, we blow it up or we tank to get a top draft pick. What then? What if our draft pick decides to do a "fox" and refuses to sign here? Besides, what prospect would want to sign with this pathetic team? The only solution is a change of ownership and that currently doesn't look like it's going to happen.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Don’t having picks and drafting have a little bit to do with one another?

No, being good at one doesn't make you good at the other.

Winning a lottery doesn't make you a great money manager. Buying a nice car doesn't make you a great driver.

Flames need to commit to being elite at drafting and development. Extra picks would be nice ofcourse. But teams that perpetually suck aren't bad because they don't know how to trade UFA's at the deadline.

If you're still not clear on the difference, take a look to the north.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Teroy

So, we blow it up or we tank to get a top draft pick. What then? What if our draft pick decides to do a "fox" and refuses to sign here? Besides, what prospect would want to sign with this pathetic team? The only solution is a change of ownership and that currently doesn't look like it's going to happen.

lol Coronato wasn't going to sign either. There have been very few high picks that haven't signed with their drafting teams. Fox went lower because he said he was only going to sign with the Rangers

[Paulie Walnuts]

Macklin is signing, I think he has ties to Jarome.

Conroy is 2 steps ahead of everyone.

[Tbull8]

Originally Posted by Teroy

So, we blow it up or we tank to get a top draft pick. What then? What if our draft pick decides to do a "fox" and refuses to sign here? Besides, what prospect would want to sign with this pathetic team? The only solution is a change of ownership and that currently doesn't look like it's going to happen.

You say players wont sign with the Flames, but how many high first round picks can you name that did that? Lindros?
For almost every other high pick they want to play in the NHL, they really dont care what team that is with. If a player decides to Lindros the flames and refuse, then you ship him out for a haul, just like the Nordiques did. Fox was a mid round pick that had one more year left until he was a college UFA. That is a completely different scenario

[Teroy]

Originally Posted by Bonded

lol Coronato wasn't going to sign either. There have been very few high picks that haven't signed with their drafting teams. Fox went lower because he said he was only going to sign with the Rangers

Just because Coronato signed doesn't mean it will happen every time. The posting said, "what if". Besides, one great draft pick won't get it done. This team needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up so maybe the solution is "blow it up".

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

First trade is not happening. Mercer is much more valuable to NJ than Lindholm. They already acquired their rental in Toffoli. Pointless to get Lindholm when they've got Hughes and Hischier.

CP has long thought NJD is desperate to be fleeced by the Flames organization.

The Flames would have to add a 1st for this trade to become anywhere close to becoming reality.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

The good thing is they have a rookie GM who's unlikely to finagle players that help them now without giving up more from his end.

Hopefully the "acceptance" part of the grief that is surely going through the front office right now comes around soon.

I'm kind of curious about what Huska can accomplish if the players actually learn his system anyways. Maybe they can create a situation that Wolf could slide into without being overwhelmed every night?

Familiar players, familiar coach. Is it that hard to learn a new system?

[FlamesAddiction]

Oh, I have no big worries that they wouldn't sign. They stand to lose too much money if they don't. It's not the top guys that are close to being NHL ready that you need to worry about. It's guys like Fox who weren't ready to start their pro careers early, and by the time they were, they were close enough to the end of the tunnel that he could wait without losing as much money.

The bigger problem is that if the team is still anchored by the time their ELCs are up, they will probably be inclined to take the Matthew Tkachuk route of early free agency.

I just don't see a path for a one-shot rebuild with the Flames. It will likely have to be a 2 or 3 phased approach until all of Treliving's mistakes fade away.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The bigger problem is that if the team is still anchor by the time their ELCs are up, they will probably be inclined to take the Matthew Tkachuk route of early free agency.

The Stars managed just fine. Kadri buyout isn't terrible if they really get in a pinch. Even if they hit the best case and draft guys that can play right away they still have their ELCs to burn through, so three high picks over the next three years and you have seven years to sign the last guy to a long contract.

[Teroy]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Oh, I have no big worries that they wouldn't sign. They stand to lose too much money if they don't. It's not the top guys that are close to being NHL ready that you need to worry about. It's guys like Fox who weren't ready to start their pro careers early, and by the time they were, they were close enough to the end of the tunnel that he could wait without losing as much money.

The bigger problem is that if the team is still anchor by the time their ELCs are up, they will probably be inclined to take the Matthew Tkachuk route of early free agency.

I just don't see a path for a one-shot rebuild with the Flames. It will likely have to be a 2 or 3 phased approach until all of Treliving's mistakes fade away.

Forgive me for my lack of contract details but don't successful draft picks sign an entry level contract? I fail to see how refusing to sign would effect them losing too much money?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Teroy

Forgive me for my lack of contract details but don't successful draft picks sign an entry level contract? I fail to see how refusing to sign would effect them losing too much money?

Yeah, so the longer they wait to sign it then the longer they delay their lucrative second contract. Sign it at eighteen or wait till they get to the team of their choice and the drafting teams rights expire.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Teroy

Forgive me for my lack of contract details but don't successful draft picks sign an entry level contract? I fail to see how refusing to sign would effect them losing too much money?

It's all about:
- How fast they get to that second contract. We see those are now HUGE contracts based on recent examples (e.g. Jake Sanderson, Dahlin, etc). So you want to start the clock on that 3 year ELC as early as possible
- How fast you get to UFA status where you get the second massive pay day.


For premium prospects the long-term financial consequences of not signing are massive.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

How about let’s just start with commitment to building through the draft and stop signing old UFA’s.

I’m not necessarily on team “blow it up”. While trading your players for picks sounds awesome, I’m not exactly sure that winners get built that way. Being good at drafting and development is what matters most IMO.

It’s not just a matter of being good at drafting and development. I’m struggling to think of a team that turned things around just by taking their regular #10-20 OA first round pick and standard allotment of later picks. Even the Stars’ franchise-changing 2017 draft had two 1st round picks, and one of them was #3 overall.

3 Heiskanen
26 Oettinger
39 Robertson

Granted, the Stars didn’t blow it up. They got the extra 1st by trading a non-core player in Patrick Eaves.