Israel declares war on Hamas

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

This is changing in Canada and the UK (and the US a bit).

Canada and UK haven't declared Hamas responsible for the hospital attack like the US did (yet). They both said they are investigating it further.

Even the US they've changed their tune in the last few days to telling Israel to act smart and Biden said not to act like the US did post 9/11.

They are still both Israel supporters but its not the 100% support it was in the past. Support for Israel policies has dropped a lot even among Jewish people living in North America. Particularly left leaning and younger voters are less supportive of Israel policies. Suspect a lot of that is due to their government and policies towards Palestine rather than some anti-sematic jump.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/390737/...n-support.aspx

It’s too bad there is so much division over this guy, because this particular statement coming from the top is huge. It shows accountability; and that almost never happens.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hamas isn’t just a bunch of dudes with pistols and molotov cocktails. Their sponsors have been equipping them with an arsenal of weapons and facilities, and Hamas have built a 500km network of tunnels in Gaza to house their operations. When the ground invasion kicks off, Israel will be going after this military infrastructure - the bomb labs, rocket caches, ammunition dumps, and bunkers. The IDF have been training in tunnel warfare for just this eventuality.

Pretty good article about all this from the CBC.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel...nels-1.7003180

[PepsiFree]

The post-9/11 response is a really easily comparable, in my mind, because it gives some frame of what “success” even looks like and has been highly criticized on its own (which is another point against the idea that Israel is uniquely criticized). And, I think it provides a really sobering look at the damage already done and what can actually be achieved.

In the last two weeks, based on approximate numbers, Israel has killed twice as many civilians as the US did in the first three months of the war on terror, while killing or capturing about 10-20% of the enemy fighters the US had. It took about 8 years to reduce the size of the Taliban by 75% and chase out (most of) Al Queda. But today, both are stronger in number than they were on 2001. The Taliban itself wasn’t that much bigger than Hamas.

Obviously some differences here, but that’s just an idea of what the immediate response looked like and what they achieved overall. I think Israel’s success here is going to be a lot less likely and a lot more costly than people assume.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hamas isn’t just a bunch of dudes with pistols and molotov cocktails. Their sponsors have been equipping them with an arsenal of weapons and facilities, and Hamas have built a 500km network of tunnels in Gaza to house their operations. When the ground invasion kicks off, Israel will be going after this military infrastructure - the bomb labs, rocket caches, ammunition dumps, and bunkers. The IDF have been training in tunnel warfare for just this eventuality.

We don't know the length of the tunnel network and we may never know for certain but there was some sort of expert of CNN the other day talking about the tunnels and his claim was that the 500km was heavily exaggerated by Hamas and it is more likely that the network is about 10% that size.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The post-9/11 response is a really easily comparable, in my mind, because it gives some frame of what “success” even looks like and has been highly criticized on its own (which is another point against the idea that Israel is uniquely criticized). And, I think it provides a really sobering look at the damage already done and what can actually be achieved.

In the last two weeks, based on approximate numbers, Israel has killed twice as many civilians as the US did in the first three months of the war on terror, while killing or capturing about 10-20% of the enemy fighters the US had. It took about 8 years to reduce the size of the Taliban by 75% and chase out (most of) Al Queda. But today, both are stronger in number than they were on 2001. The Taliban itself wasn’t that much bigger than Hamas.

Obviously some differences here, but that’s just an idea of what the immediate response looked like and what they achieved overall. I think Israel’s success here is going to be a lot less likely and a lot more costly than people assume.

Israel has also dropped more bombs in Gaza in that first week than the US did in Afghanistan in any single year of their 20-year long invasion of Afghanistan.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/ex...hospital-blast

Israel has dropped more bombs on Gaza in the first week of this campaign, about 6,000 or so, than the U.S. dropped on Afghanistan in any single year of 20 years of war, as you know.

I said it earlier when this all first started, but I completely understand the immediate reaction to the brutal murders by Hamas on normal, every day Israelis, but as noted by Biden, immediately exacting devastating revenge on Gaza and everyone in Gaza was going to be a mistake. I thought the better approach would have been to secure Israel, eliminate the terrorists who were in Israel causing chaos and then take a pause, mourn for the victims and grow international support in their favor for showing restraint in a devastating moment in Israel's history and then work on an international solution organized around moving Palestinian citizens out before going in to destroy Hamas.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by activeStick

While the focus is on Gaza, a tragic story covering only a small subset of the disgusting acts that some Palestinians are having to endure in the West Bank from Israeli settlers.







16, 17 and 6-years old. These are children.





https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67173344

Some of the Israeli settlers are no better than Hamas fore sure. They are usually ultra religious hard liners.

Here's what forensic investigators(and the Israeli soldiers removing the bodies are dealing with) trying to identify victims of the terrorists attack.

In light of the growing international interest in (and denials of) the Palestinian terror group Hamas’ October 7 massacre in southern Israel, representatives of the global press were invited to see the horrors for themselves.

Forensic pathologists, including Israeli staffers as well as volunteers from abroad, were visibly disturbed by the evidence before them. Despite every effort to remain objective and detached—as called for by the profession—many broke down into tears throughout the day.

During the initial press conference, the forensics team showed images from their investigations. Among the images were those of charred hands with marks that revealed where the victims’ hands were bound behind their backs with metal wire before being burned alive.

Perhaps the most disturbing image in the slideshow was a completely charred mass of flesh, which at first glance could not be seen as ever having belonged to a human. It was only after a CT scan was done that experts could see the inhumanity of the image.

"Two spinal cords—one belonging to an adult, one to someone young—a parent and child bound together by metal wires in a final embrace before being set alight."

“The proportion of bodies we’ve received who are charred is high,” Kugel explained. “Many have gunshot wounds in their hands, showing they put their hands up to their faces in defense. Many were burned alive in their homes. … We know they were burned alive because there is soot in their trachea, their throats—meaning they were still breathing when set on fire.”

Additionally, Israel’s small population gives rise to the fact that no one is far removed from the wake of the massacre. “My sister has a close friend of hers who is still missing,” said Bublil, as she stood beside a blood-stained mattress from a baby’s crib. The DNA from the mattress will be used to try and identify a brutally disfigured and unaccounted-for infant.

Fighting back tears, Israeli forensic pathologist Dr. Hagar Mizrahi explained that “as you know, the Jewish people must bury their dead as soon as possible.” But as of this writing, nearly two weeks have passed since the massacre, and some 350 bodies remain unidentified. “So, the people here at Abu Kabir are doing their best to help and identify the most severe cases that arrive.”

Speaking personally, Bublil said that she wants the world to know that “generally, Hamas enjoyed the killing.”

According to Bublil, “This was not combat, or a military conflict, or a state conflict, or a political conflict. [Hamas] enjoyed the murders so much that they did everything they could do to celebrate the killing. They celebrated burning houses with civilians inside who didn’t do anything to them. They enjoyed grabbing an 18-year-old girl from a party, a festival, dragging her to a car, and taking her to Gaza. And who knows what happened [to her] in between. They enjoyed and celebrated the death. … These are monsters. They’re not human… They weren’t merciful to anyone. No one who was alive and encountered them remained alive. No one.”

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world...fies%20victims


Now, I'm not saying this justifies retaliation against innocent Palestinian civilians. I'm really not but I will point out the collective rage that has swept through Israel since then.

[transplant99]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1715770462716699001

[Fuzz]

Transplant, why do you keep getting your Info from this Mario weiner? He's not an honest actor.


https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-...usk-rcna121465


https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-ne...ions-rcna92132


Really anyone amplified by Xitter these days should probably be treated as suspect.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Now, I'm not saying this justifies retaliation against innocent Palestinian civilians. I'm really not but I will point out the collective rage that has swept through Israel since then.

^
Now I'm not saying this justifies terrorism and slaughter of innocent Palestinian civilians but you know what I actually am.

[curves2000]

The more and more I think of this entire situation, the scarier it's getting actually. I know some posters brought up Biden and comments post 9/11 and how to avoid mistakes, but this appears to me like the US is headed straight for a middle east war again.

Right or wrong, Biden now owns this war in a lot of ways and America has got more than it's toe in the water. Israel 100% needs to respond to this and they have the right to feel protected but they also know America has their back. There is little downside risk for them to tread carefully on this. They won't own the blowback WHEN this spreads.

It seems Israel has a LONG LEASH to do in essence what it wants to in this situation and nobody really is questioning how well this will turn out.

For all intensive purposes, Israel right now is fairly well protected given it's location and their Iron Dome system, not 100% of course but as well as can be.

The casualties from the IDF will be high and the civilian casualties from Gaza will also be as well. I am just not seeing a scenario where the Arab world just sits back quietly while in essence Israel, America, the west, the rich, the powerful and more just go in and start killing large swaths of Arabs and Muslims in general. Sure war has casualties but we are probably going to see tens of thousands of innocent people die, starve, be injured and more. Maybe even hundreds of thousands.

What did we get from Biden's half day in Israel? Not much action to try and mitigate the nightmare that might come.

Is this the perfect time for China to invade Taiwan? With the US occupied on multiple fronts? We are a year out from an election and Bibi's buddy Trump may well win next year. How does that scenario affect things? Can Joe Biden be counted on to be a serious wartime President for 5+ years given his advanced age, mental hiccups and the strain of the job?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by curves2000

The more and more I think of this entire situation, the scarier it's getting actually. I know some posters brought up Biden and comments post 9/11 and how to avoid mistakes, but this appears to me like the US is headed straight for a middle east war again.

Right or wrong, Biden now owns this war in a lot of ways and America has got more than it's toe in the water. Israel 100% needs to respond to this and they have the right to feel protected but they also know America has their back. There is little downside risk for them to tread carefully on this. They won't own the blowback WHEN this spreads.

It seems Israel has a LONG LEASH to do in essence what it wants to in this situation and nobody really is questioning how well this will turn out.

For all intensive purposes, Israel right now is fairly well protected given it's location and their Iron Dome system, not 100% of course but as well as can be.

The casualties from the IDF will be high and the civilian casualties from Gaza will also be as well. I am just not seeing a scenario where the Arab world just sits back quietly while in essence Israel, America, the west, the rich, the powerful and more just go in and start killing large swaths of Arabs and Muslims in general. Sure war has casualties but we are probably going to see tens of thousands of innocent people die, starve, be injured and more. Maybe even hundreds of thousands.

What did we get from Biden's half day in Israel? Not much action to try and mitigate the nightmare that might come.

Is this the perfect time for China to invade Taiwan? With the US occupied on multiple fronts? We are a year out from an election and Bibi's buddy Trump may well win next year. How does that scenario affect things? Can Joe Biden be counted on to be a serious wartime President for 5+ years given his advanced age, mental hiccups and the strain of the job?

lol, two in one thread. Awesome.

I wouldn't say the US is occupied on any wars, really. They're on the sidelines of both, but not engaged directly in either. Hopefully it stays that way.

I think your whole take is meaningless because it's based on a totally incorrect foundation. USA doesn't have boots on the ground or planes in the air or tanks on the battlefield in either of these conflicts. They're present becuase fk yeah world police, but they're not mired in anything right now. First time in a while they've had time to kind of regroup and view the world in a sober and somewhat objective way (from their perspective). It's the perfect spot for their military to be in...they can allocate resources to wherever fires are burning hottest and they aren't committed or bogged down anywhere.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Transplant, why do you keep getting your Info from this Mario weiner? He's not an honest actor.


https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-...usk-rcna121465


https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-ne...ions-rcna92132


Really anyone amplified by Xitter these days should probably be treated as suspect.

Because, for some reason, the same people who are ultra critical of “mainstream” or “liberal” media like CBC, right down to criticizing their style and language guides, put absolutely zero critical thought into where they actually get their news from.

People have been sharing random telegram posts, Ben Shapiro, this Nawfal dork, and a handful of other sources nobody in their right mind would take seriously if they didn’t already agree with them. Pretty great.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by transplant99

https://twitter.com/user/status/1715770462716699001

Just a question, and I know nothing of these tunnels or of military tactics, but why would the IDF not just constantly fill them with smoke or tear gas? Or flood them? Or maybe they are? I suppose there's a possibility that there may be hostages down there.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Muta

Just a question, and I know nothing of these tunnels or of military tactics, but why would the IDF not just constantly fill them with smoke or tear gas? Or flood them? Or maybe they are? I suppose there's a possibility that there may be hostages down there.

I don’t think the IDF would have any problem killing hostages if it meant a few members of Hamas were going with them.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Because, for some reason, the same people who are ultra critical of “mainstream” or “liberal” media like CBC, right down to criticizing their style and language guides, put absolutely zero critical thought into where they actually get their news from.

People have been sharing random telegram posts, Ben Shapiro, this Nawfal dork, and a handful of other sources nobody in their right mind would take seriously if they didn’t already agree with them. Pretty great.

Don't forget Reddit.
Reddit is the eyes and ears on the ground.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don’t think the IDF would have any problem killing hostages if it meant a few members of Hamas were going with them.

I wouldn't blame them, either, tbh. Can't get bogged down in worrying about 200 hostages in something like this. Concedes too much power and encourages future hostage takings. Just tell them you don't gaf about the hostages and there goes their leverage.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Don't forget Reddit.
Reddit is the eyes and ears on the ground.

You believe Hamas reports after clear evidence presented that the Palestinians blew up their own hospital. Not even the hospital but the parking lot.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Transplant, why do you keep getting your Info from this Mario weiner? He's not an honest actor.


https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-...usk-rcna121465


https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-ne...ions-rcna92132


Really anyone amplified by Xitter these days should probably be treated as suspect.

Did he "make up" the video footage?


I dont really care that you find him suspect, and in fact it confirms your inability to be anywhere near neutral.

Read the dudes history...if anything he is certainly more pro-Palestine than anything else. Because he owes people money from years past, that means content should be ignored? How strange.

Dont shoot the messenger comes to mind.

I posted a piece by CBC earlier too, describing the tunnel system and the difficulties the IDF will have. Is it suspect too? Or because its something YOU think is a good source its OK?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You believe Hamas reports after the Palestinians blew up their own hospital. Not even the hospital but the parking lot. Lol

Show me where I said that.
Jeez... You're doing that unhinged edit thing again.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Muta

Just a question, and I know nothing of these tunnels or of military tactics, but why would the IDF not just constantly fill them with smoke or tear gas? Or flood them? Or maybe they are? I suppose there's a possibility that there may be hostages down there.

Well apparently this footage isnt real because the guy who posted it is a "dork".

Honestly though, I have just learned about this network of tunnels and all thats associated with them in the last couple weeks. Apparently learning about new things and posting what I have discovered triggers some people.

Oh well.