Israel declares war on Hamas

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Beninho

So going after Hamas, who is targeting civilians with rockets while murdering the most Jews since the Holocaust, is not protecting its people? Wow ok.

Yes.

How do you think the Israelis are going to destroy Hamas exactly?

There are like 40,000 of them all blending in with the civilian population.

They can target some leadership, but they will just be replaced internally, and they also have external leadership outside Gaza.

[Blaster86]

It's a scary time when disagreeing with a country's policy is carte blanche for those who oppose your position to accuse you of being self-hating or anti-semitic.

This is not a healthy way to debate or argue. We gain nothing for it.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

What Israel is doing right now though isn't protecting its people. It's enacting revenge.

Does anyone really believe that this incursion into Gaza is actually going to destroy Hamas?

I think it's both. That's what I was alluding to with short-term and long-term.

In the short term, Israel's best protection would be annihilate everyone and everything in Gaza. But that would not only make them monsters guilty of exacting revenge but it would also hurt the long term. In the long term, the best option for protecting Israeli citizens is to try to avoid conflict with Palestinians and the Arab world altogether. More bloodshed in the short term will only hurt that prospect. But in the meantime, Israel needs to prevent the specter of more attacks from Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad or the Judean People's Front (SPLITTERS!).

I think everyone except the very best of us, which I don't count myself in, would want revenge under similar circumstances. In a natural reaction but not a rational response.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

How do you think the Israelis are going to destroy Hamas exactly?

There are like 40,000 of them all blending in with the civilian population.

They can target some leadership, but they will just be replaced internally, and they also have external leadership outside Gaza.

40,000 plus probably an order of magnitude higher that support them materially, and then more that support them passively. It’s going to be tough for sure.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Because you assumed that because I, like others who point out that both sides are guilty of atrocities am by default pro-Palestinian and anti Israel?

I thought you were only pointing out Israeli atrocities while ignoring the Hamas ones. Not denying Hamas atrocities, but not drawing attention to them either.
I think there's some vocal posters in this thread who are very guilty of that on both sides.
While they won't deny their side has done bad, they certainly don't bring it up either because it doesn't win them the argument.

I lumped you into that unfairly, so my apologies.

We all know Hamas are evil. We're all agreed they're a pos that needs to be taken out.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that Israel has shown also to have no issues targeting and killing innocents also.

This is a cycle of violence. Both sides doing their bit to keep the wheels rolling. But pointing out one sides part appears to be inviting a label.

But thanks.... I think!

I agree with all of this.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Beninho

So going after Hamas, who is targeting civilians with rockets while murdering the most Jews since the Holocaust, is not protecting its people? Wow ok.

Yes.

This is the crux of the issue, though. Israel believes going after Hamas will protect it's people. It's an understandable position. The reality is, it will ultimately mostly likely lead to more dead Israelis than if they do not. And no, I don't have a better alternative, but it should be very well understood by those in charge that it's a strong possibility.

[_Q_]

Hamas releases 2 US hostages. Being reported by aljazeera.

[Leondros]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ts-2023-10-20/

Abu Ubaida said they released the citizens "for humanitarian reasons, and to prove to the American people and the world that the claims made by (President Joe) Biden and his fascist administration are false and baseless."

Hamas' armed wing said on Oct. 16 that kidnapped non-Israelis were "guests" who would be released "when circumstances on the ground allow."

Well, maybe all of them are not dead. This makes an invasion more difficult if Hamas makes it look like they are playing ball.

Apparently it was brokered by Qatar.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

How do you think the Israelis are going to destroy Hamas exactly?

There are like 40,000 of them all blending in with the civilian population.

They can target some leadership, but they will just be replaced internally, and they also have external leadership outside Gaza.

Hamas isn’t just a bunch of dudes with pistols and molotov cocktails. Their sponsors have been equipping them with an arsenal of weapons and facilities, and Hamas have built a 500km network of tunnels in Gaza to house their operations. When the ground invasion kicks off, Israel will be going after this military infrastructure - the bomb labs, rocket caches, ammunition dumps, and bunkers. The IDF have been training in tunnel warfare for just this eventuality.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hamas isn’t just a bunch of dudes with pistols and molotov cocktails. Their sponsors have been equipping them with an arsenal of weapons and facilities, and Hamas have built a 500km network of tunnels in Gaza to house heir operations. When the ground invasion kicks off, Israel will be going after this military infrastructure - the bomb labs, rocket caches, and bunkers. The IDF have been training in tunnel warfare for just this eventuality.

There also aren't 40,000 Hamas full time fighters. The number of full time soldiers is considerably lower than this and may only be a few thousand. The remainder are regular citizens who have minimal training.

Hamas has likely already lost at least 2,000-3,000 of its dedicated soldiers. A lot of the high ranking commanders have been taken out too.

If you take out enough of Hamas' command structure, the rest of the military just falls apart. The majority of their "soldiers" would just be average guys who attended a couple weeks of instruction on how to do commando crawls. They aren't spearheading any kind of military conflict with the IDF.

[flamesfever]

nm

[WCW Nitro]

I think one thing that has surprised some governments is that regular people know a lot more about this conflict than before, the tired narrative of Israel is just fighting terrorism is not cutting it. And you can see how many governments have modified their statements now. A lot more talk about rules of war and rights of Palestinians.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I think one thing that has surprised some governments is that regular people know a lot more about this conflict than before, the tired narrative of Israel is just fighting terrorism is not cutting it. And you can see how many governments have modified their statements now. A lot more talk about rules of war and rights of Palestinians.

Not a surprising post from you, Hamas could go slaughter 100,000 Israelis and you still will find a way to play the victim card. Literally the day after the most Jews have been murdered since the Holocaust you were here spewing your anti-Israel agenda. Like clockwork

We’ve got Pro-Hamas marches in the West Bank with posters of Dead Israelis on them but ya just a people who want peace. Question for you Nitro, did you pass out candy on October 7th too?

Look at this pro-peace flyer the PLO have been handing out today.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestinian...e/s/jSmYTkKmhp

Nice Hamas rally in the west bank
https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/s/6t5KOIzYni

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Not a surprising post from you, Hamas could go slaughter 100,000 Israelis and you still will find a way to play the victim card. Literally the day after the most Jews have been murdered since the Holocaust you were here spewing your anti-Israel agenda. Like clockwork

We’ve got Pro-Hamas marches in the West Bank with posters of Dead Israelis on them but ya just a people who want peace. Question for you Nitro, did you pass out candy on October 7th too?

Look at this pro-peace flyer the PLO have been handing out today.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestinian...e/s/jSmYTkKmhp

You don’t believe any Palestinians have been victims? Neither before nor after Oct 7?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You don’t believe any Palestinians have been victims? Neither before nor after Oct 7?

Of course I do, victims on both sides. The Palestinians and supporters have an amazing way of shifting all the blame on to Israel. The lack of societal accountability is astounding and is why they are in this mess in the first place. Maybe stop screaming about some BS genocide and recognize that Palestinian society values the death of Israel more than they value an actual state, which is one of the biggest reasons why they are perpetually refugees.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Of course I do, victims on both sides. The Palestinians and supporters have an amazing way of shifting all the blame on to Israel. The lack of societal accountability is astounding and is why they are in this mess in the first place. Maybe stop screaming about some BS genocide and recognize that Palestinian society values the death of Israel more than they value an actual state, which is one of the biggest reasons they are perpetually refugees.

Then how are they “playing” the victim?

And if they are victims to you, aren’t you just blaming them by saying they lack accountability and are just “screaming about some BS genocide,” etc?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Then how are they “playing” the victim?

And if they are victims to you, aren’t you just blaming them by saying they lack accountability and are just “screaming about some BS genocide,” etc?

Numerous wars waged, countless suicide bombs, intifadas, demands for a state that would jeopardize Israeli security. Teaching their children now for decades about the evil Jew, Brainwashing their society. See the books they give their children in school

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-...-watchdog/amp/

But to them and their supporters it is always Israels fault, they are impervious to look within their own society and say “hey, you know what, trying to kill Israelis has not gotten us very far”. Their supporters that flood social media come up with ridiculous words like genocide and apartheid, without actually questioning what the Palestinians could have done many years ago, when your slogan is “from the river to the sea” you are going to make it very hard to make peace. When you pay terrorists families like the PLO still does, you make it hard for peace, when you continually reject reforming your own society you can’t make peace.

I by no means am saying Israel is without any fault, i think I have said now numerous times Israel could have and can do more in the future for peace. But if peace is ever a possibility it will take a major reform of Palestinian society and some god damn accountability.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I think one thing that has surprised some governments is that regular people know a lot more about this conflict than before, the tired narrative of Israel is just fighting terrorism is not cutting it. And you can see how many governments have modified their statements now. A lot more talk about rules of war and rights of Palestinians.

Spotlight journalism and social media certainly do effect public opinion. At any given time, war is being waged in a dozen or more countries in the world. And that has been true for as long as any us have been alive.

Not far from Israel, the Yemeni Civil War has been raging for a decade, with 370,000 dead so far. Where are the news features? The public petitions? The protests? The moral outrage?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Not far from Israel, the Yemeni Civil has been raging for a decade, with 370,000 dead so far. Where are the news features? The public petitions? The protests? The moral outrage?

In light of where we are in the world, with Israel being the United States only ally that isn't that way out of money or convenience in that region. I have zero doubt there is a push by American and Israeli enemies to create a narrative using social and main stream media that strains and helps degrade popular opinion and thus the strength of that relationship.

The image of the doctors surrounded by dead and injured at a 'press conference' after the "hospital bombing" was not something done with the truth and good intentions in mind.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I don't think "zero tolerance" is an accurate reflection of what happened in 1970. I believe there were protests in several cities after the Act was invoked. Here's one from Toronto on October 17th, 1970.

Things were a bit more repressive in Quebec, but it was also an internal crisis. I don't think the Israeli government honestly believes that people protesting in Israel are actually working with Hamas.

Granted, it's pretty easy to understand why Israelis and their government might feel the way they do given what they've gone through. But significant curtailment of civil liberties and letting feelings of retribution guide your policy rarely works out in the long term. There's a reason why it's a credible theory that Hamas did this basically in order to suck Israel into a damaging quagmire and to push both sides to the extremes, and that's because it's a real thing that happens. And to some extent, Israel is falling into that trap.

So Canada did have protests and whoever said they did not was just making things up?