Israel declares war on Hamas

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I may have misinterpreted what he said. If so, my apologies to Sliver.



Yes, the Palestinians have a legitimate beef and honestly I don't know what I would do in their situation.

What makes me uneasy in this whole conversation is why the history of Gaza, the West Bank Settlements and other Israeli atrocities are only being raised in this thread which is specifically a response to the attacks on Oct.7. It feels a little like "they had it coming" type of response from some. One person even said that the "chickens had come home to roost". I recognize that we aren't expected to have an ongoing thread/conversation about the treatment of Palestinians here as it would be the second longest running thread in CP history (because E=NG always) but it still feels like many are using this as an opportunity to justify the horrible attacks on Oct.7.

The bolded is an absolutely ####ing insane reach.

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Why do the numbers matter at all?

Intent is always what matters. We have this in western society all the time. Someone can stab 5 people without intent, or murder 1 person with intent, and the outcome from our justice system will always be more severe to the person that only killed one person but with intent.

it matters because for all intensive purposes, it plays to motive.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Sigh......so much bad is coming.

Spoiler!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1715042972813676592

This board is indicative of what people should be most worried about. Here, you have a bunch of Canadians (for the most part) getting pretty passionate about the situation, even angry. Imagine how fired up people close to the situation are. All this war is doing is fueling an inevitable explosion of emotion/rage in that region. I agree, so much bad is coming.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Why do the numbers matter at all?

It shows that the balance sheet is opposite to that being portrayed by the most vocal side of this discussion. Hamas is garbage for killing almost 3,000 people. The state of Israel is equal garbage to killing five times that in response.

Intent is always what matters. We have this in western society all the time. Someone can stab 5 people without intent, or murder 1 person with intent, and the outcome from our justice system will always be more severe to the person that only killed one person but with intent.

Are you suggesting there is no intent on Israel's side, because they are responding? I would say just the opposite. There is very specific intent and with measured outcomes. Both sides are at fault here. The innocent civilians are the ones who pay the price and that's what we have top out a stop to.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

The bolded is an absolutely ####ing insane reach.

What does this mean then?

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

So the blockaid for multiple decades was in response to this one specific attack?

I won't get all ranty again but Isreal gave them no reason or the Arab world as a whole to be upset. They never started a single conflict since 1948.

What's the old saying? Chickens coming home to roost..

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by zunie75

it matters because for all intensive purposes, it plays to motive.

This... this didn't just happen, did it?

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by DFO

Nah, bombing the crap of civilian infrastructure for the umpteenth time will surely work... As if there isn't a lesson in the results of the past actions

Yes, but rejecting multiple peace proposals, every single state and two state peace solution, including triggering wars when peace offers were proposed for the umpteenth time will also surely work. It goes both ways here. Hamas has been documented actively hides explosives, weapons, and rocket launchers deliberately close to civilians infrastructure both to protect the weapons to use Gazans as human shields to maximize casualties.

Any chance at peace requires compromise, which Hamas is unwilling to do. Even PLO agreed in principle to a two state solution. Hamas does not want Israel to exist and does not even recognize Israel, constantly launches attacks at Israel. They do not want peace. So what is your solution to stopping a Hamas attack from repeating?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I don't think people understand the religious aspect of this from the Israeli side, the only way there will be peace is if the U.S. reins in Israel. Israel has made it very clear that this is greater than Hamas. And I think that is why the U. S. officials are making so many trips to Israel, they have become spooked about Israel taking Gaza.

If it were just religious aspects on the Israeli side, it is interesting that Druze people typically support Israel, and despite being Arab, also tend to self identify as Israeli. They are not Jewish but many of their leaders have supported Zionism and one of their clerics came out not that long ago and said their destiny and survival is tied to the Israeli state.

Or you have Circassian Muslims who were settled there by the Ottomans in the 1870s, who were attacked by Arabs from that time, also tend to support Israel and reject Arab demands.

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This... this didn't just happen, did it?

my bad lol

[DFO]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Yes, but rejecting multiple peace proposals, every single state and two state peace solution, including triggering wars when peace offers were proposed for the umpteenth time will also surely work. It goes both ways here. Hamas has been documented actively hides explosives, weapons, and rocket launchers deliberately close to civilians infrastructure both to protect the weapons to use Gazans as human shields to maximize casualties.

Any chance at peace requires compromise, which Hamas is unwilling to do. Even PLO agreed in principle to a two state solution. Hamas does not want Israel to exist and does not even recognize Israel, constantly launches attacks at Israel. They do not want peace. So what is your solution to stopping a Hamas attack from repeating?

Comments were referring to the notion of cutting the head of the snake so to speak instead of the same old & ineffective bombing tactics.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I may have misinterpreted what he said. If so, my apologies to Sliver.



Yes, the Palestinians have a legitimate beef and honestly I don't know what I would do in their situation.

What makes me uneasy in this whole conversation is why the history of Gaza, the West Bank Settlements and other Israeli atrocities are only being raised in this thread which is specifically a response to the attacks on Oct.7. It feels a little like "they had it coming" type of response from some. One person even said that the "chickens had come home to roost". I recognize that we aren't expected to have an ongoing thread/conversation about the treatment of Palestinians here as it would be the second longest running thread in CP history (because E=NG always) but it still feels like many are using this as an opportunity to justify the horrible attacks on Oct.7.

Because it was a big enough event to trigger a larger topic of conversation. Oct 7 didnt happen in a bubble. It wasn’t something with no before and no after, so I’m not sure why conversation about it wouldn’t go those ways either. I actually don’t know a single thread that is political or to do with some sort of major societal/cultural/global event that doesn’t see the conversation expanded beyond the original topic. Should we all just make one post saying “terrorism is evil” and then close up the thread?

I don’t see how you can honestly believe that “many” are using this as an opportunity to justify terrorism. I actually don’t believe I could find one example where I genuinely believed that of someone in this thread, but even if you were to give everyone the least benefit of the doubt possible, I can’t see how you would come to your conclusion of there being “many.”

But, at this rate, it feels like a bit of a throwaway accusation meant to put people off of having a sane, ration conversation about the conflict.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by zunie75

it matters because for all intensive purposes, it plays to motive.

So close...

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

SomeUN OCHA numbers to consider. Since 2000 Hamas has killed 2,746 Israelis. Tragic and heinous. No one is defending Hamas and everyone is in agreement that Hamas should be hunted out of existence.

On the other side of the engagement Israel has killed 14,293 Palestinians during that same time. A ratio of 5.2 to 1. Is this not equally as tragic and heinous? These numbers do not include the death and suffering caused from the apartheid state the Palestinians are living under. When is this going to enter the larger conversation?

It's been in the conversation for decades. Here's detailed breakdown of the reasons:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ian-conflicts/

[blankall]

Originally Posted by DFO

Comments were referring to the notion of cutting the head of the snake so to speak instead of the same old & ineffective bombing tactics.

1. Israel has never tried anything like this. In the past, it's always been Israel taking out a few rocket sites and then being pulled back by international pressure. Similarly an attack on Israel, by Hamas, like this has never happened before. This is new territory.

2. Secondly, the nature of the attack and the fact it was caused by Israel loosening the blockade, to allow far more Gazan workers into Israel, signals that the current status quo cannot continue. Hamas will never allow a peace agreement. What point is there continuing with Hamas in power. The two options are take out Hamas or continue with even greater restrictions to land Hamas controls.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Because it was a big enough event to trigger a larger topic of conversation. Oct 7 didnt happen in a bubble. It wasn’t something with no before and no after, so I’m not sure why conversation about it wouldn’t go those ways either. I actually don’t know a single thread that is political or to do with some sort of major societal/cultural/global event that doesn’t see the conversation expanded beyond the original topic. Should we all just make one post saying “terrorism is evil” and then close up the thread?

I don’t see how you can honestly believe that “many” are using this as an opportunity to justify terrorism. I actually don’t believe I could find one example where I genuinely believed that of someone in this thread, but even if you were to give everyone the least benefit of the doubt possible, I can’t see how you would come to your conclusion of there being “many.”

But, at this rate, it feels like a bit of a throwaway accusation meant to put people off of having a sane, ration conversation about the conflict.

It's not 'meant' to do anything. You're right that there is no conversation in a vacuum. It's the vibe I've gotten from several posters in this thread. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not. There is no intent on my part to steer this away from a rational conversation. In fact, I've tried to focus on responding rationally as much as possible (maybe not successfully) to avoid personal insults, sarcasm and snide remarks. This is a personal and sensitive subject for many people and the wounds are very fresh, especially for those who have family or connections to the region.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I see your point about the exaggeration of beheadings but Hamas did still kill hundreds of innocent civilians in very brutal manors.

Israel did not (so it seems) target and bomb a hospital at all.

Very different to dig your heels in where an atrocity did happen vs one where it wasn't even perpetrated by the side you're comdemning.

There was also a dramatic difference in the media coverage. “Reports of decapitated babies” were sometimes mentioned in the bodies of news stories. That’s a far cry from headlines of major mainstream newspapers declaring “500 dead in Israeli bombing of Gaza hospital”. Two-thirds of people who read the headline of a news story never read the body.

[chedder]

Twitter, so take it for what it's worth, but reports of bombing of U.S. airbase in Iraq and attempted missile fire from Yemen Houthi terrorists on American naval ship.

Scary if true.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Israelis do not want to kill Palestianians.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The only point that I was making was that they don't outright declare they want to kill all Palestinians the way Hamas wants to eliminate every Jew. But they get as close as possible.

I'm really struggling to pin down what you are saying now because you're contradicting yourself.

Are you saying now that they do want to kill Palestianians but just don't want to admit it so they can claim the moral high ground?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

1. Israel has never tried anything like this. In the past, it's always been Israel taking out a few rocket sites and then being pulled back by international pressure. Similarly an attack on Israel, by Hamas, like this has never happened before. This is new territory.

2. Secondly, the nature of the attack and the fact it was caused by Israel loosening the blockade, to allow far more Gazan workers into Israel, signals that the current status quo cannot continue. Hamas will never allow a peace agreement. What point is there continuing with Hamas in power. The two options are take out Hamas or continue with even greater restrictions to land Hamas controls.

That's one way to look at it. The other is Hamas didn't like to see an improvement in relations between the people living in Gaza and the Israelis, so they sabotaged it.

Hardline religious people - be they Muslim, Jewish or Christians - do not care about the lives of people not in their religion or those who they perceive as enemies of their faith. Regular religious people often - and unintentionally, I believe - support the hardliners by aligning against whatever group their hardliners are currently hating. It bolsters the hardliners resolve.

So we have Israel - and Jews around the world - largely supporting this psycho Israeli response to the terrorist attack. You get hardline Christians supporting the Israeli response because they - also psychotically - need Armageddon in Israel so their sky daddy will come down and, I guess, kill us all except the special ones? Awesome. I, for one, love that our world is destabilized and getting worse because a bunch of indoctrinated fools want prophecies in a dumb evil book from a couple thousand years ago to come true.

I'm so annoyed at Israel's response. Hamas are terrorists and did terrorist things. Terrorism is pretty neat in that it works so well. Who among us didn't expect Israel to fly off the handle and go totally ballistic after this? When I woke up to the news a couple weeks ago about what Hamas did I was equal parts horrified by their actions and pre-emptively horrified in anticipation of predictable Israel's predictable response.

They really could have turned that terrorist attack into a strategic advantage. Goodwill and hearts and minds are what you need. You don't get that with bombs. Hardliners will never learn, apparently. Jokers.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Also, when have the Palestinians been punished enough for October 7? When we get 10 dead Palestinians for every one dead Israeli? For the people who believe Israel has every right to destroy people and property in Gaza right now...is there a point at which you'd say, "okay, Israel...revenge has been exacted and that's enough dead until the next flare up?" And also for the cheerleaders of Israel on this...do you think Israel's current violent approach will ultimately further the presumed goal of peace and safety for the region? Or is that not what this is about?

Israel isn’t dropping bombs on Gaza to punish Palestinian civilians for Oct 7. It’s dropping bombs to destroy Hamas, it’s organization, its weapons, and its infrastructure. Hamas poses an ongoing threat to Israel, and this operation won’t end until that threat is removed or dramatically diminished.