Israel declares war on Hamas

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You are wrong. Jews are the largest target of hate crimes in Canada. I have seen it, felt it and lived it. As have my children. It is a serious problem. The latest protests were disgusting and help prove the point.

My son has been attacked for being Jewish in elementary school and junior high repeatedly by Muslim students. If he isn't being attacked, he isn't welcome in their homes. His school does nothing about it.

Jewish students in universities across north America are commonly bombarded by hatred.

Being a visible Jew is putting a target on you. If you didn't know, time to read and start understanding.

The best measure of this is that Jewish centers, synagogues and Jewish public gatherings require security/police that cost money (full time support), and wouldn't be done if not required. Just recently we didn't just have police, we had the military.

Your kinda right , kinda wrong ..

Jews are the 2nd most targeted for hate crimes, closely followed by Muslims .

The most targeted for hate crimes in Canada and It's not even close is just any one who is black.

You gotta check the official Stats. Yes, jews are the most targeted religious group but the most targeted are Black people overall. Even tho the Jewish community is targeted for hate crimes ,in the overall picture of hate crimes that take in account for religion and race Black individuals make a very over whelping majority . By taking race and religion in to the equation Jews hold a small percentage of hate crimes against them vs Just being Black.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Are you in Calgary? That's nucking futs, dude. I had no idea.

When I worked in a restaurant in the NE during my culinary Sait days ... We had 3 Iraqi kids who had only been here 3 years around 17 and a Pakistan Kids who had been here just over a year and the 3 bullied home relentlessly. They made sure the boss wasn't around and I brought it it to the bosses. It was our words against the 3 of there's so nothing really happened . They called him all sorts of things because of his Pakistan background.

In fact , I was friends with a Chinese guy my age who also in my class and this restaurant. He lived with his grand parents they didn't allow English in their house or anyone who wasn't Chinese especially white people.

Racism isn't just a white person thing.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This is a complex issue that needs to be broken down further.

First, the very existence of Israel state within its 1967 borders. It's a fact, should be accepted, and nobody should try to roll it back. World peace is built on respect to existing countries and their current borders, no matter how unfair and random were the events that led to its creation. You can take pretty much any country and question why it exists at all, and why it exists wherever it is and not in some other place, and why their borders are what they are.

In most cases there are no good answers for those questions. Why Canada is in northern part of North America? Why Switzerland is in Alps? Why Sweden is in Scandinavia? Why Romania and Moldova are different countries? Why Trinidad and Tobago is one country? Why Lichtenstein is a separate country? Why Canada-USA border is where it is, and not 10 miles more to the south? For most part, it just so randomly happened.

Still, whatever countries exist and whatever borders they happen to have, they should be respected. Countries have the right to exist just because they happen to exist now. That's good enough reason. Trying to undermine it will lead to chaos.

The very different question is Israel's further attempts to grab land, particularly to colonize West Bank. This is illegal and should have no place in 21st century. I even would have gone as far, as to say that Israel should withdrew and let West Bank govern itself. But Israel did it with Gaza and look how it ended. As of now, I see colonization of West Bank as illegal and wrong, yet best possible solution for the time being. Maybe there's better solution that I fail to see.

Every existing country has one owner.

Planet Earth, and we are just guests.

And if we humans keep acting like savages Planet Earth is going to evict us forever.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Your kinda right , kinda wrong ..

Jews are the 2nd most targeted for hate crimes, closely followed by Muslims .

The most targeted for hate crimes in Canada and It's not even close is just any one who is black.

You gotta check the official Stats. Yes, jews are the most targeted religious group but the most targeted are Black people overall. Even tho the Jewish community is targeted for hate crimes ,in the overall picture of hate crimes that take in account for religion and race Black individuals make a very over whelping majority . By taking race and religion in to the equation Jews hold a small percentage of hate crimes against them vs Just being Black.

I believe that when you take into account that there are considerably less jews than black people and that the majority of those jews aren’t visible minorities, the numbers start looking much worse. I wont get into the religious part either.

Anyway, I tried putting that into perspective for another user that didnt know how bad anti-Semitism was, even after watching those sick protests.
.

[marsplasticeraser]

Interesting data point from Amman.

I’ve seen 50 young, very in shape, brush cut Americans in my hotel all of a sudden yesterday, replacing what had been mostly older, wealthy tourists from all over the world.

Im thinking it’s just the security crew for all the US officials now in the region, and I am interested if this is the same at other western hotels in the city.

[Itse]

Q

Originally Posted by blankall

Hamas has been quite upfront with their goals from the get go. Surely, the events of this week should eliminate any benefit of the doubt. Even prior to winning the election, they were committing all sorts of suicide bombings and attacks against civilians. They then win the election and outright state that their goal is to use Gaza, and any concession Israel makes, as a staging ground for eventual genocide.

Are we to believe that only occurred because Israel took action to contain them?

Hamas has said and been a lot of things like many organizations with a history. Many here keep pointing out that they say they want to destroy Israel without mentioning they have ALSO said they would accept peace if the borders were returned to where they were in 1967, among many other things which clearly suggest that they do consider peace and co-existence as an option.

Which is true? Obviously both, because Hamas isn't a hive mind. There were and are people filled with hate in the organization as well as much more reasonable freedom fighters. As well as some people who genuinely just want to do good within the strongest organization in the area.

Hell, the hate-filled terrorists can surprisingly often be the exact same people who want to legitimately help their local community. Individual people can also go down different paths when given different opportunities.

As already mentioned in the thread, Hamas used to be a lot more in the business of building schools and hospitals and creating a livable country for Palestinians. More specifically, that was the path they had been moving towards before the blockade started. That looked like the path they were on, which is one of the reasons they were seen as a votable option. (The key factor was that they were seen as significantly less corrupt, which was at that point probably true too.) There was an expectation among Hamas that as a legitimate governmental organization they would start to be treated as equals internationally and eventually taken off terrorist lists.

A comparison point would be the ANC in South Africa, which was also categorized as a terrorist organization. Nelson Mandela was also a terrorist. Oh, and the ANC was also supported by Russia for further political complication. The ANC also had it's radicals saying all kinds of unprintable things about the white population in South Africa, yet when the apartheid ended and the ANC took over politically, they were treated like the governing party and not like terrorists.

Of course there are also differences between the history of ANC and Hamas (the most important of which is that ANC was much more of a tent organization for different groups), but the point I'm trying to make is that accepting the Hamas as a legitimate local government was absolutely an option based on historical precedent.

Do I know for sure that if Hamas had been accepted as the leading party of Palestinians, they would have de-radicalized further (instead of becoming more extreme which is what did happen)? Obviously not. The hate did run deep then as it does now. But I would claim that if you did pay attention to the policies Israel chose to pursue and their effects on Gaza, it was just obvious that those policies had an exactly 0% chance of leading to good outcomes, and that other paths did exist.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Pointman

That's because Hamas is not a regular army, does not wear uniforms (it's a war crime) and clear signs of what they are. Technically all Hamas members are civilians since Hamas is not an army, but rather a gang. Hamas is doing everything possible to be like a chameleon that pretends to be civilians when they need. That's a war crime.

What kind of ridiculous justification is that for capturing people without charge? That's like saying well since everyone in Israel has to serve in the military for a period of time that means there are no civilians in Israel. The excuses for Israeli attrocities are getting more strange by the minute.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I believe that when you take into account that there are considerably less jews than black people and that the majority of those jews aren’t visible minorities, the numbers start looking much worse. I wont get into the religious part either.

Anyway, I tried putting that into perspective for another user that didnt know how bad anti-Semitism was, even after watching those sick protests.
.

You can belive what you want . Numbers and math don't lie beliefs aside statistically there are more jews than blacks in Canada..

Again just want to state beliefs are why this issue is a problem. Muslims and jews beliefs and not facts are why we are here today...

[combustiblefuel]

The irony lost on isrealies a shame. The Russians and germans hunted them down now they do it to the Arabs. They got their land in theb40s via a bribe from the US and just did what there oppressors did.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Blocking food and water is the leverage to release hostages (who are also civilians and some are not even Jews). If you want water, just release hostages. If they are already dead, admit it.

On the sidenote, declaring the goal of destroying Israel and then complaining that Israel turned off electricity switch is kind of, well, childish. My four years old does something like this.

You do understand that you are advocating for is extremely obvious a war crime? Israel is deliberately targeting all people in Gaza with immediate and significant threat to their health as a negotiation tactic with Hamas.

People also don't seem to be grasping what "evacuate North Gaza" means in practice. Israel is telling 1.1M million people to move in a day. They are very literally, very deliberately and very obviously just punishing the people of Gaza en masse as pretty much their first move.

Combined with blocking of basic necessities, this looks exactly what Israel would be doing if their plan was just to genocide the people of Gaza.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Itse

You do understand that you are advocating for is extremely obvious a war crime? Israel is deliberately targeting all people in Gaza with immediate and significant threat to their health as a negotiation tactic with Hamas.

People also don't seem to be grasping what "evacuate North Gaza" means in practice. Israel is telling 1.1M million people to move in a day. They are very literally, very deliberately and very obviously just punishing the people of Gaza en masse as pretty much their first move.

Combined with blocking of basic necessities, this looks exactly what Israel would be doing if their plan was just to genocide the people of Gaza.

OK, so what's your plan?

[Itse]

Juat consider for a second the population transfer Israel is commanding. Gaza is already one of the most densely populated ares in the world, with extremely limited infrastructure to support it's citizens. Now Israel is demanding that a little over half the population (most of whom are underaged btw) should move in with the other half, in one day, or suffer the consequences. How are they even logistically supposed to do that? Where are they supposed to stay? How would they live there? For how long? With whatz when they don't have time to pack or the logistical means to move their stuff?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

OK, so what's your plan?

You know what.
"What's would you do" is the question of a sociopath as a response to "hey this looks a lot like genocide in motion".

Just stop for a second and notice how far your own humanity has already evaporated here, because you want to debate the legitimacy of insanity. The immediate international response from multiple countries and the UN has basically been "this is insane you can't do this". Israel might as well be telling people that they should turn into birds and jump off a building, and if they die jumping off a building because they couldn't actually turn into birds well it's not on us.

Hostage situations are typically resolved over weeks and months, not days. Ground assaults aren't properly planned and prepared in a couple of days anyway.

Since Israel obviously doesn't actually care about the hostages (as they have been bombing a whole lot of places where there might have been hostages), there's no real rush.

[Language]

Originally Posted by Itse

You know what.
"What's would you do" is the question of a sociopath as a response to "hey this looks a lot like genocide in motion".

Just stop for a second and notice how far your own humanity has already evaporated here, because you want to debate the legitimacy of insanity. The immediate international response from multiple countries and the UN has basically been "this is insane you can't do this". Israel might as well be telling people that they should turn into birds and jump off a building, and if they die jumping off a building because they couldn't actually turn into birds well it's not on us.

Hostage situations are typically resolved over weeks and months, not days. Ground assaults aren't properly planned and prepared in a couple of days anyway.

Since Israel obviously doesn't actually care about the hostages (as they have been bombing a whole lot of places where there might have been hostages), there's no real rush.

Your takes here are very idealistic.

The country just suffered a terrorist attack that on relative terms, equates to almost 30,000 American citizens killed. And not just killed, but brutally murdered, hunted down, and slaughtered like wild stock. Families, young teenagers, kids, babies. Entire families savagely burned alive and killed. Nothing like this seen since the Holocaust, which remains a scar on every living Jew.

Israel cares deeply about all of its hostages. They spent 5 years trying to bring back Galid Shalit, and his whereabouts were topic of conversation in most mainstream Israel for years. Having to exchange so many terrorists for Shalit in the prisoner exchange was a bittersweet moment for many Israelis, as many of those terrorists had knowingly killed Israelis too.

So you cannot say with a straight face that Israel does not care for the 150+ hostages being held captive. They obviously want to bring each of them home alive.

Do you even understand how complex this entire situation is?

Do you know how many German citizens were killed in the bombings of Dresden when the Allies were fighting Germany? Countries do what they need to do.

I feel terrible for the average innocent Palestinian caught in the cross fire. It’s almost a death sentence to be born in the Gaza strip. But that is the lottery of life, and if Hamas was really interested in the protection of their citizens, they should release the hostages and not hide within civilian infastructure.

Everyone loves to #### on Israel but provides no viable alternative on how they should act. Just some idealistic alternative like Israel should accept that this hostage situation should take months…what!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

You can belive what you want . Numbers and math don't lie beliefs aside statistically there are more jews than blacks in Canada..

Again just want to state beliefs are why this issue is a problem. Muslims and jews beliefs and not facts are why we are here today...

Census Canada has the black Canadian population at 1.5 million or approximately 4.3% of the Canadian population

Jewish Canadians have a population of about 335,000 or roughly 1% of the Canadian population.

[transplant99]

Reasonable demand by Egypt IMO.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713167287258055082

[activeStick]

EDIT: Removed link to misleading tweet

[transplant99]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713184058891518124

[Puppet Guy]

Originally Posted by activeStick

The US uses their veto power (only vote against) to stop a Protection of Gaza resolution put forward at the UN aimed at protecting civilians in Palestine and then sees their own counter resolution get unanimously rejected during the vote.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712356624332116042

That's an old clip. Nicky Halley hasn't been UN ambassador since 2018.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

What kind of ridiculous justification is that for capturing people without charge? That's like saying well since everyone in Israel has to serve in the military for a period of time that means there are no civilians in Israel. The excuses for Israeli attrocities are getting more strange by the minute.

It's actually a very good one. Israel doesn't know who is a combatant and who isn't, and it's solely because Hamas, and other groups, have used that as a tactic.

If Israel didn't detain people, they'd be putting their population at severe risk. And yes, international law states you can detain people in those circumstances, in fact, sometimes in perpetuity.

Where do you get this idea that one size gets to break all of the rules and the other side has to pretend like they are fighting someone who is following the rules.