Israel declares war on Hamas

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This is correct. Similarly, Russians feel that they were betrayed by the west and lost Ukraine, that is actually motherland of Russia. And Kyiv is original capital of Russia. Point is, the whole idea of trying to rollback an ownership change because you feel it was unfair needs to die. If it helps, the way Arabs conquered Palestine at the first place was also against the will of previous inhabitants.

Well the Palestinians see it as Israel attempting to roll back the clock 2000 years to a time when all of the West Bank and Gaza was Jewish land.

This maximalist attitude needs to end. From both sides.

Edit: to add to the original point. The brittish never once owned the land. The administered the land after the fall of the Ottomans. The ownership of the land was assumed to just continue as it previously was.

For a family that has been living on land since the beginning of recorded history, that is, for all intents and purposes, theirs. They may not have documentation of that because i doubt there's a central database for the Ayyubid Sultanate that anyone can check.

With that said, you might be surprised at the number of palestinians who do have documentation of land ownership that has been rendered useless. I have a photocopy of a land title from the Ottomans empire for a plot of land in Southern Israel. It's now a highway junction that is named after the now depopulated village. I don't have any delusions that that document will ever mean anything. But I do have it.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Lots of discussions among parents today whether to keep their kids home from schools or university campuses.

Why is that?

Sorry if I missed something, haven't been following along closely.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This is correct. Similarly, Russians feel that they were betrayed by the west and lost Ukraine, that is actually motherland of Russia. And Kyiv is original capital of Russia. Point is, the whole idea of trying to rollback an ownership change because you feel it was unfair needs to die. If it helps, the way Arabs conquered Palestine at the first place was also against the will of previous inhabitants.

I agree with you on that point. Unfortunately, due to politics Israel wasn't able to solve the settlements issue. The people that live(d) in Israel know that Netanyau's political partners are typically ones that try to encourage settlements. Or at least be lenient towards them by not evacuating them/suspending demolition warrants etc. Everyone in Israel remembers the evacuation of the settlement "Gush Katif", and the political price such an evacuation takes.

The population in Israel is mostly split regarding the settlements issue. I think that as long as Israeli citizens keep appropriating land illegally this will be an issue. As long as this keeps happening Palestinians feel as though it is only a matter of time before their current homes are also taken.

That said, I also don't think that the 67 borders are realistic. Israel would be okay with giving away surrounding territories, but not Jerusalem. That's mostly due to its religious significance to most of its citizens.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Why is that?

Sorry if I missed something, haven't been following along closely.

There were calls from the supporters of Hamas for a retribution day world wide. A lot of cities are preparing, fully mobilizing their police force etc.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712568846740336913

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Why is that?

Sorry if I missed something, haven't been following along closely.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...orthern-france

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Palestine was under British mandate. Before it was ottomans empire. Earlier it was Khalifat, Byzantine, Romans, Israel. Palestinians never ever had their own independent country.

What you are trying to say is that Israel is not a legit state. Like what Putin says about Ukraine.

Trying to take back the land you lived at 80 years ago is archaic and should die. This mindset, not religion, is the root of the evil.

Right - it was governed and administered (not owned) by various regimes but that doesn't mean the partition plan of the last regime is necessarily "right" as you imply. The people of the region at the time had a right to self-determination, not to be carved up by a foreign power. The Jewish residents of the area accepted the plan and declared a state. The Arab ones rejected the plan and attacked. It was a civil war (joined by Arab allies) that got both sides where they are now, and that civil war has never ended.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

There were calls from the supporters of Hamas for a retribution day world wide. A lot of cities are preparing, fully mobilizing their police force etc.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712568846740336913

Ehhh well that's not surprising. Stay vigilant, but to hell with staying home for fear of violence. That's exactly what they want.

#### em. Go live your life.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Lots of discussions among parents today whether to keep their kids home from schools or university campuses.

I too remember post-9/11 fear mongering

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Israel has erred on the side of avoiding killing civilians to get their targets. Gaza would look very different today if it didn’t.

You mean it would look something like this?



(The picture is from 2021.)

But again we’re confronted with the question of what to do about a ruthless enemy that hides among civilians. How to conduct a moral war against such an enemy? There’s no country in the world that puts the safety of enemy civilians above the safety of its own.

Do you consider the Battle of Mosul, where ISIS was defeated by a coalition of Iraqis, Kurds, and an international task force, to be a failure? More than 3,000 civilians were killed.

These are valid points, to which I have only some answers.

First, most of the mistakes are already made, so if you could go back in time, the main mistake was the overreach of the blockade. This completely backfired by radicalizing Hamas and the people of Gaza much more than what they used to be.

Yes, Hamas winning that election was bad for peace, but Israel and the international community made it so much worse by trying to force the people of Gaza into submission right when they had been promised self-governance. That promise was in effect broken immediately, and created a belief on the Palestinian side that Israel just can't be trusted. It also created a situation where the only allies Hamas had left were mostly various Islamists groups or states. Their only allies from that point forward were those who wanted Hamas to fight Israel. A turn toward extremism was just inevitable.

I would also argue that the air strikes aren't really about protecting Israeli civilians, it's to protect IDF troops from the hazards ground fighting. Which is extremely fair, but not a longterm solution. At this point there probably isn't an alternative to re-occupying Gaza. Yes it will also end up in fighting and heavy civilian casualties, but at ground level it's possible to actually do real damage to Hamas, and after re-occupation Israel could start working towards making Gaza truly livable again, which is the only long term solution to the extremism.

The Battle of Mosul also needed troops to actually go in and take over.

It would likely be an ugly process too, and not guaranteed to succeed, but at least there would be a chance.

IDF should probably try to involve/recruit as many Palestinians as possible to work for an Israel led security force / police in Gaza, to make the conflict less about jews and muslims and more about security and terrorists.

If Israel doesn't trust the Palestinians with the resources to build infrastructure, then Israel needs to do it themselves.

And they need to start working towards ending the apartheid politics.

At this point it looks like the two-state solution is dead for Gaza anyway.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Lots of discussions among parents today whether to keep their kids home from schools or university campuses.

Two of my good friends are Jewish out here. One family had their 2 daughters (6 and 8) go to school (he also mentioned they practiced specific safety drills yesterday which is depressing), while the other family kept their son home.

[Royle9]

I feel like I need an ELI5 moment as to how this came to be such a #### show for so long.
Civilians are paying the ultimate price on both sides, it’s disgusting to hear some of the stories coming out of this latest conflict.

But.. why is it that this one strip has been at war for so long?
Not being ignorant, I’ve watched a few vids and read a few stories but it’s so confusing.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Royle9

I feel like I need an ELI5 moment as to how this came to be such a #### show for so long.
Civilians are paying the ultimate price on both sides, it’s disgusting to hear some of the stories coming out of this latest conflict.

But.. why is it that this one strip has been at war for so long?
Not being ignorant, I’ve watched a few vids and read a few stories but it’s so confusing.

People who have a different Sky Daddy can't be friends.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Palestine was under British mandate. Before it was ottomans empire. Earlier it was Khalifat, Byzantine, Romans, Israel. Palestinians never ever had their own independent country.

What you are trying to say is that Israel is not a legit state. Like what Putin says about Ukraine.

Trying to take back the land you lived at 80 years ago is archaic and should die. This mindset, not religion, is the root of the evil.

Religion is the root of all evil, prejudice and discrimination for the entirety of civilisation. It is used to brainwash populations and justifies incalculable evil in the eyes of its followers that the most barbaric of atrocities are for the greater good and that they will actually be rewarded for eternity - after you are dead.

I wish there was an afterlife - not for eternity, but for ten minutes, so followers had the time to realise that their whole belief system was a lie and that any time they spent following in it and paying their tithes was wasted and misused by people who took them for complete mugs.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Royle9

I feel like I need an ELI5 moment as to how this came to be such a #### show for so long.
Civilians are paying the ultimate price on both sides, it’s disgusting to hear some of the stories coming out of this latest conflict.

But.. why is it that this one strip has been at war for so long?
Not being ignorant, I’ve watched a few vids and read a few stories but it’s so confusing.

Honestly, don't seek out biased information from either side. Try to find some Wikipedia articles regarding the history of Israel, the history of palestine, zionism and palestinian nationalism. I say Wikipedia because it's reasonably neutral. Then form your opinion, but read news articles from the side you don't agree with.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

People who have a different Sky Daddy can't be friends.

Technically they're the same Sky Daddy, just one version has a hype man that's just as revered as the Sky Daddy himself.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Honestly, don't seek out biased information from either side. Try to find some Wikipedia articles regarding the history of Israel, the history of palestine, zionism and palestinian nationalism. I say Wikipedia because it's reasonably neutral. Then form your opinion, but read news articles from the side you don't agree with.

Wikipedia is not a fair source.

On issues that are controversial, they essentially decide a lot of them on a popularity contest. There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world.

Wikipedia can be a good source to refer you to actual sources.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

Wikipedia is not a fair source.

On issues that are controversial, they essentially decide a lot of them on a popularity contest. There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world.

Wikipedia can be a good source to refer you to actual sources.

Yes, but Wikipedia is American, which is pro-israel.

Like I said, probably as neutral if a source as you're going to get. Every article has its biases.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Technically they're the same Sky Daddy, just one version has a hype man that's just as revered as the Sky Daddy himself.

Abrahamic religion in a nutshell:

Made up Sky Daddy
Guy claiming to be son of Sky Daddy
Guy claiming to be PR guy of Sky Daddy

Depending on who is your most important dude, you can't be friends.

[bdubbs]

Maybe the only solution is for Israel and Palestine to have sex... if every following generation is a hybrid of both, there won't be any reason to hate one another... (I know it's not realistic but it's a better answer than killing more civilians.)

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by bdubbs

Maybe the only solution is for Israel and Palestine to have sex... if every following generation is a hybrid of both, there won't be any reason to hate one another... (I know it's not realistic but it's a better answer than killing more civilians.)

DNA tests have already demonstrated that Israelis and Palestinians are more closely related than other groups in the region. It's already happened for centuries. Unfortunately, they can't see past their identities/labels/cultures/religions.