Israel declares war on Hamas

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Actual data about support for Hamas among Palestinians from the Palestinian Center for Policy (with the caveat that I know nothing about this organization or its polling methodology) -
https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/...ber%202023.pdf

That's actually very encouraging. It still leaves the problem of getting rid of Hamas. Although this could have been Hamas desperately trying to maintain popularity.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Arabs celebrating the death of their enemies - "barbaric! This shows how backwards their society is. Kill them all. Get the genocide started!"

White people doing the same - "hey man, all sides, many sides. This is nuanced. Go educate yourself. "

White supremacy at its finest.

Can you show me some footage of people in the West dancing and cheering over the slaying of music festival attendees and old ladies? How about spitting on the naked corpses of women?

It’s ridiculous to think this all just racist hypocrisy, when people in the West have been excoriating Russians for over a year for their slaughter of Ukrainian civilians. Though again, as Muscovites have not been rejoicing and high-fiving over footage of civilians being murdered in Mariupol, it’s not a perfect analogy.

You can have compassion for the innocent people in Gaza who are being killed in the retaliation without pretending that what Hamas did three days ago is no different from what Western states do.

[Beninho]

Nm

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by blankall

That's actually very encouraging. It still leaves the problem of getting rid of Hamas. Although this could have been Hamas desperately trying to maintain popularity.

The perverse thing is that after what Hamas has done, and what Israel is inevitably going to do in response (and has already started doing), that percentage of support is going to go up. Which is in large part why Hamas did it.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by blankall

That's actually very encouraging. It still leaves the problem of getting rid of Hamas. Although this could have been Hamas desperately trying to maintain popularity.

Well, they will have a large number of folks grieving the death of loved ones to jump on board after a few weeks. angry, ready to throw their lives away for revenge.


The cycle continues.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Can you show me some footage of people in the West dancing and cheering over the slaying of music festival attendees and old ladies? How about spitting on the naked corpses of women?

It’s ridiculous to think this all just racist hypocrisy, when people in the West have been excoriating Russians for over a year for their slaughter of Ukrainian civilians. Though again, as Muscovites have not been rejoicing and high-fiving over footage of civilians being murdered in Mariupol, it’s not a perfect analogy.

You can have compassion for the innocent people in Gaza who are being killed in the retaliation without pretending that what Hamas did three days ago is no different from what Western states do.

Do you think no footage exists of israelis dancing in the streets at the killing of palestinians? Hell, go back a couple of pages. Someone already posted one example.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The perverse thing is that after what Hamas has done, and what Israel is inevitably going to do in response (and has already started doing), that percentage of support is going to go up. Which is in large part why Hamas did it.

The bitter truth. Make no mistake - one of the things Hamas want out of this is lots and lots of dead Palestinians.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Can you show me some footage of people in the West dancing and cheering over the slaying of music festival attendees and old ladies? How about spitting on the naked corpses of women?

It’s ridiculous to think this all just racist hypocrisy, when people in the West have been excoriating Russians for over a year for their slaughter of Ukrainian civilians. Though again, as Muscovites have not been rejoicing and high-fiving over footage of civilians being murdered in Mariupol, it’s not a perfect analogy.

You can have compassion for the innocent people in Gaza who are being killed in the retaliation without pretending that what Hamas did three days ago is no different from what Western states do.

But that's not what he was doing, and you know that isn't what he was doing, and I believe when you accused me of making up a strawman you also accused me of having a mental disability, so where did your strawman come from?

He was responding to an article showing Israelis parading down the street chanting "Death to Arabs," while Palestinians are forced to closed their shops to let the Israelis through while they "celebrate." That was brought up in response to the idea that the parades celebrating Hamas' actions were somehow indicative of Palestinians being evil as a people.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

He was responding to an article showing Israelis parading down the street chanting "Death to Arabs," while Palestinians are forced to closed their shops to let the Israelis through while they "celebrate."

The article you posted is about a parade of Israeli nationalists celebrating "Jerusalem Day" - the Israeli takeover of the entirety of Jerusalem about five decades ago. In the article, it specifically says that although vile things were being chanted, the Israeli police specifically forbade any violence or incitement of violence and arrested people for such crimes as "throwing objects".

In contrast, these parades were in support of murders, kidnappings, rape, and other similar crimes committed earlier this week, including against children, some of them featuring the still-bleeding bodies of their murder victims being carried around.

It's sort of like comparing a parade by the Westboro Baptist Church to... I dunno, I want to say Charlottesville but that doesn't remotely do it justice. These things are just not the same and there have been a ton of those types of false equivalencies thrown around despite people thanking posts imploring people not to fall into that trap.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that the Israeli high court has ruled that chanting "Death to Arabs" is illegal and can result in arrest... not that it helped in that instance, but it doesn't appear to be state-sanctioned behaviour, at least.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The article you posted is about a parade of Israeli nationalists celebrating "Jerusalem Day" - the Israeli takeover of the entirety of Jerusalem about five decades ago. In the article, it specifically says that although vile things were being chanted, the Israeli police specifically forbade any violence or incitement of violence and arrested people for such crimes as "throwing objects".

In contrast, these parades were in support of murders, kidnappings, rape, and other similar crimes committed earlier this week, including against children, some of them featuring the still-bleeding bodies of their murder victims being carried around.

It's sort of like comparing a parade by the Westboro Baptist Church to... I dunno, I want to say Charlottesville but that doesn't remotely do it justice. These things are just not the same and there have been a ton of those types of false equivalencies thrown around despite people thanking posts imploring people not to fall into that trap.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that the Israeli high court has ruled that chanting "Death to Arabs" is illegal and can result in arrest... not that it helped in that instance, but it doesn't appear to be state-sanctioned behaviour, at least.

Agree with pretty much your entire statement about the difference between the two and one being worse than the other, but I would not confuse what the courts do in Bibi’s Israel with whether something is state sanctioned. The National Security minister was at the march, that is about as state sanctioned as one can get.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The article you posted is about a parade of Israeli nationalists celebrating "Jerusalem Day" - the Israeli takeover of the entirety of Jerusalem about five decades ago. In the article, it specifically says that although vile things were being chanted, the Israeli police specifically forbade any violence or incitement of violence and arrested people for such crimes as "throwing objects".

In contrast, these parades were in support of murders, kidnappings, rape, and other similar crimes committed earlier this week, including against children, some of them featuring the still-bleeding bodies of their murder victims being carried around.

It's sort of like comparing a parade by the Westboro Baptist Church to... I dunno, I want to say Charlottesville but that doesn't remotely do it justice. These things are just not the same and there have been a ton of those types of false equivalencies thrown around despite people thanking posts imploring people not to fall into that trap.

It is very similar at best and far worse in my opinion.

Celebrating the killing of a few hundred people a few weeks ago vs. celebrating the ethnic cleansing of palestinians from jerusalem.

One is an isolated celebration of killing a few hundred people. A celebration that will probably not be repeated in the future. The other is a yearly event where Israelis march through the streets screaming "death to the arabs". It's a yearly reminder of past, present and potentially future genocide.

It isn't a small thing as you claim. It would be equivalent to Canadians marching through the streets of native reserves screaming "death to the Indians. We're coming for you to finish the job."... every year and having Christia Freeland join, on September 30. Oh but I'm sure it'll all be good because the RCMP wouldn't allow anyone to throw stuff.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The article you posted is about a parade of Israeli nationalists celebrating "Jerusalem Day" - the Israeli takeover of the entirety of Jerusalem about five decades ago. In the article, it specifically says that although vile things were being chanted, the Israeli police specifically forbade any violence or incitement of violence and arrested people for such crimes as "throwing objects".

In contrast, these parades were in support of murders, kidnappings, rape, and other similar crimes committed earlier this week, including against children, some of them featuring the still-bleeding bodies of their murder victims being carried around.

It's sort of like comparing a parade by the Westboro Baptist Church to... I dunno, I want to say Charlottesville but that doesn't remotely do it justice. These things are just not the same and there have been a ton of those types of false equivalencies thrown around despite people thanking posts imploring people not to fall into that trap.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that the Israeli high court has ruled that chanting "Death to Arabs" is illegal and can result in arrest... not that it helped in that instance, but it doesn't appear to be state-sanctioned behaviour, at least.

It's not "state-sanctioned," but no officers did anything to stop it, and members of the governing party joined in.

They don't have to be the same to see the similarities. Parading around celebrating a terrorist attack is wrong, right? We agree? We can agree without the context?

I feel like, for the other, the context is extremely important. Do you not see how having to close your shops so your oppressor can parade around in front of you chanting for your death and destruction, celebrating their ownership of a piece of land they don't own (noting that Arabs see the day extremely differently), days after Israeli strikes decimated areas and killed multiple civilians (including women and children), is viewed very much the same?

Why are the people in one situation evil, and the others not? Why couldn't they be viewed the same? Is a parade celebrating or chanting for the death of your enemies OK if you just killed a dozen or so of them, but not OK if you just killed a few hundred? How many deaths are you allowed to celebrate after, if it's more than a dozen but less than a few hundred? Can you explain further?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

All the nuance in the world won't make a difference. Blood will beget blood. The only people who will win are weapon manufacturers and construction companies.

So....the United States?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The perverse thing is that after what Hamas has done, and what Israel is inevitably going to do in response (and has already started doing), that percentage of support is going to go up. Which is in large part why Hamas did it.

Perhaps not. If Hamas' actions result in even more carnage and the Palestinian cause being set back further then ever, people may look at a weakened and depleted Hamas, and decide they've had enough.

[carmenshoes]

Trump gave the Russians intel which they gave to Iran which Iran gave to Hamas in order for this attack to transpire.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Can you show me some footage of people in the West dancing and cheering over the slaying of music festival attendees and old ladies? How about spitting on the naked corpses of women?

It’s ridiculous to think this all just racist hypocrisy, when people in the West have been excoriating Russians for over a year for their slaughter of Ukrainian civilians. Though again, as Muscovites have not been rejoicing and high-fiving over footage of civilians being murdered in Mariupol, it’s not a perfect analogy.

You can have compassion for the innocent people in Gaza who are being killed in the retaliation without pretending that what Hamas did three days ago is no different from what Western states do.

People in the West have not faced occupation and they know that if there is an attack on them, they have armies that will retaliate. And plus there were many people in the West who were pushing for torture after 9/11 at Guantanamo.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Do you think no footage exists of israelis dancing in the streets at the killing of palestinians? Hell, go back a couple of pages. Someone already posted one example.

You don't think people, in the middle of an ethnic war, dancing is different than what Hamas has done?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by chemgear

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67056741

The last videos taken before the horror began, show it was a festival like any other - young people, dancing at dawn.

We also know that, whether they found the site by accident or not, they came prepared to kill.

Slaughter captured on camera

And then the body by the car moves. The man, who appears to have been playing dead, stirs. He raises his head to see if the coast is clear.

It's a fatal error.

Seconds later, another militant jogs into frame and shoots him in the head at point blank range and walks away.

More than 260 bodies have reportedly been recovered from the site, according to rescue agency Zaka.

Mobile and drone footage lays bare the scale of the Hamas assault, with the roads leading to the sites strewn with cars which had failed to make it through the frenzy of bullets.

One of the most harrowing videos to emerge from the festival is of a woman named on social media as Noa Argamani. In footage posted on social media by Hamas, she is seen being bundled on to the back of a motorcycle by militants crying and screaming, reaching out to a man who is being restrained. He watches on as she is driven away into the distance.

The dash cam videos from people trying to flee are pretty disturbing as well. You see the militants shoot through the doors and windshield. The drivers obvious still trying to drive away while wounded and wind up just slowing to a stop or crashing. Then with the glee of the devil, they kill the kids then adults inside.

An you know when the militants go home to Gaza and get killed, they have the luxury of being called "civilian" casualties because they wear different hats when they are at home. I take the rate of "civilian" casualties with a grain of salt because their militants look like civilians and probably inflates the numbers.

[PaperBagger'14]

It will never cease to amaze me that people in the LGBTQ community will stand by Palestine. That is so counter intuitive to have any compassion towards a group who voted in a government who would behead them and parade their severed skull through the streets.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

You don't think people, in the middle of an ethnic war, dancing is different than what Hamas has done?

huh?

Middle of an ethnic war? One where only one ethnicity is allowed to celebrate the death of the other? Why? Because they're more like "us"?