[Rumour] Chris Johnston: Lindholm is interested in staying

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I did a big break down a few weeks ago. In the last 20 years only two teams have won without drafting multiple players in the top 5 picks a few years before winning the cup. Detroit and Vegas.

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

You do the research. In the last 20 years, There are only two teams who have won a cup without a top 5 pick and that is just a technicality because Eichel was on Vegas, and Yzerman player for Detroit, but I thought it would be disingenuous to include him.

Ummm...St Louis drafted Pietrangelo 4OA 11 years before winning their cup, and didn't pick higher than the teens after that...

How many teams have picked multiple top 5 since 2003 (if you want to include Washington we've gotta go back that far...)? It's probably easier to think of the teams that haven't...

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Ummm...St Louis drafted Pietrangelo 4OA 11 years before winning their cup, and didn't pick higher than the teens after that...

How many teams have picked multiple top 5 since 2003 (if you want to include Washington we've gotta go back that far...)? It's probably easier to think of the teams that haven't...

Some (not all) Teams that have picked top-5 multiple times since 2003:

Pittsburgh - 3 rings
Washington - 1 ring
Tampa Bay - 2 rings
Colorado - 1 ring
Chicago - 3 rings
Los Angeles - 2 rings

Since drafting Stamkos and Hedman, Tampa has been to the conference finals SEVEN TIMES.

From 2008 onward, Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA, or Tampa have been in 13 of the 16 finals.

The Leafs and Oilers haven’t broken through yet - their chances are inarguably better WITH Matthews/Marner/Tavares or McDavid/Draisaitl than without.

It’s why it was so important for Calgary to come away with Jack Eichel - they weren’t ever going to be in a position to draft that type of player on their own, and that was the only move that could’ve convinced Gaudreau and Tkachuk to stay.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Some (not all) Teams that have picked top-5 multiple times since 2003:

Pittsburgh - 3 rings
Washington - 1 ring
Tampa Bay - 2 rings
Colorado - 1 ring
Chicago - 3 rings
Los Angeles - 2 rings

Since drafting Stamkos and Hedman, Tampa has been to the conference finals SEVEN TIMES.

From 2008 onward, Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA, or Tampa have been in 13 of the 16 finals.

The Leafs and Oilers haven’t broken through yet - their chances are inarguably better WITH Matthews/Marner/Tavares or McDavid/Draisaitl than without.

It’s why it was so important for Calgary to come away with Jack Eichel - they weren’t ever going to be in a position to draft that type of player on their own, and that was the only move that could’ve convinced Gaudreau and Tkachuk to stay.

There are only 7 teams that haven’t picked multiple times in the top 5 since 2003.

What I found interesting is that 6/7 have either won the cup or appeared in the finals in that same time frame. And 7/25 teams with multiple picks have failed to do either.

It’s not just Edmonton and Toronto that haven’t broken through, it’s Buffalo, NYI, Columbus, Arizona, New Jersey, Carolina, etc. LA and Chicago are up there for # of top 5 picks with all these teams, but the funny difference is that both LA and CHI’s appearance in the top 5 are pre and post-cup win combined, while all the rest of these teams have yet to even see a cup final in the past 15 years or so (except Jersey a decade ago).

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

For a team that isn’t rebuilding you guys love talking about rebuilds.

I think folks are just trying to stay positive and have something to look forward to. Nothing wrong with that.

[Hackey]

There's nothing wrong with dreaming. It's like when you buy a lotto ticket and talk about what you'd do with the money if you won.

[PepsiFree]

I don’t know anyone who brings up the lotto every other day for an entire summer.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don’t know anyone who brings up the lotto every other day for an entire summer.

I also dont know anyone who logs onto a lotto ticket forum to discuss lotto tickets every other day for an entire summer. So, yeah, you don't have much substance there.

[Hackey]

One trade with no significant signings doesn't leave much to talk about.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

I also dont know anyone who logs onto a lotto ticket forum to discuss lotto tickets every other day for an entire summer. So, yeah, you don't have much substance there.

Cool, neither do I.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Cool, neither do I.

Then, great post

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Hackey

One trade with no significant signings doesn't leave much to talk about.

If you were restricting yourself to talking about things the Flames actually did, which nobody is.

[Mr.Coffee]

I agree the Flames aren't rebuilding and won't Pepsi and you made a good post up above about the stats on those groups having had higher picks or not;

but for me personally one of the cool things about a rebuild would be following a "home developed" prospect base over achieve or surpass expectations. You don't always need a rebuild to do that but a rebuild is a good way to set the table for that. I actually think this year's team is looking like it will be one of those surpass expectations years and those are the most fun years.

When you go into those years where your team is expected to be a legit contender and then fails to make the playoffs (like, last year, for example), it's more frustrating than fun because you're watching your team fail, bumble around, make mistakes, not perform to the level you believed they could be at based on historical performance.

When you have a bunch of rookies and prospects and build towards something, it's pretty fun following that team and then (hopefully) watching them come together into a real team or sum of the parts over time. Lots of fans like to watch the architecture of a pro-hockey team. Trades are less, so building a team through the draft seems like the best strategy to build a contender. So yeah, I totally get why people want to see a rebuild if they have lost faith in the current go-forward strategy. Likewise when the Flames outperform this year and do really well, it'll be nice to see all the bandwagoners come on back. It's pretty annoying seeing all the growth in fan support the Oilers have had lately so the Flames need a really fantastic year surpassing expectations to win some of that back.

[Hackey]

Exactly. The journey can provide a lot of enjoyment. Watching the progression of a team is exciting. Watching a team build from the ground up would be very rewarding for fans.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If you were restricting yourself to talking about things the Flames actually did, which nobody is.

Stop being so negative.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Exactly. The journey can provide a lot of enjoyment. Watching the progression of a team is exciting. Watching a team build from the ground up would be very rewarding for fans.

This is all true about right now, so it makes sense to actually enjoy the journey instead of constantly complaining that you aren’t on a different one, no?

The beginning of a rebuild is fun in its own way. And I’m sure the fans will feel very rewarded when the Flames win, regardless of how they get there.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Stop being so negative.

Ya the negativity has to stop. Some folks just want something to look forward to. Nothing wrong with that.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Ya the negativity has to stop. Some folks just want something to look forward to. Nothing wrong with that.

There's plenty to look forward to right now, a couple weeks away.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Ya the negativity has to stop. Some folks just want something to look forward to. Nothing wrong with that.

I mean, there is a whole new hockey season to look forward to, with all sorts of tantalizing storylines to go with it ...

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[Toonage]

Young Stars tournament starts 1 week from today! Flames jerseys back on the ice. Thats pretty awesome.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yep, well said.

Those opposed to rebuilds seem to believe that those who are pro-rebuild see it as some sort of guaranteed Stanley Cup route. We (pro-rebuild folk) know that it isn't, but we do think it's the only real sure-fire non-expansion, non-lighting in a bottle way to put your team in a position to have a consistent shot at things.

To win a Stanley Cup, I've long said you need to do two simple things:

1. Bottom out and build the foundation of your team through the top of the draft. Yes, this means timing the year of the bottoming out is incredibly important, and does include a significant luck factor (like everything in hockey).

2. You have to be one of the best run teams in the entire league AFTER (and at the same time?) you bottom out and build the foundation of your team through the top of the draft. You need to find hits all through the draft, and you need to manage your salary cap almost perfectly.

I think the Flames, for a brief stretch, under Treliving hit point #2. There were mistakes on the salary cap side that ended up being near fatal - but no matter how good things went, they could not overcome the fact that they did not do #1. They absolutely CRUSHED it in drafting Tkachuk and Monahan both at the 6th overall spots. Bennett at 4 isn't that bad, but it wasn't a home run...but Monahan was never Mackinnon or Barkov (1 and 2 that year) and Bennett was no Ekblad or Draisaitl (1 and 3 that year). We never got our Hedman or Mackinnon, not even an Eichel or a Drasaitl. The Flames didn't accomplish #1.

Imagine if we had snagged Barkov and Bennett? Or Monahan and Draisaitl? Then all of a sudden you look at Andersson, Dube, Kylington, and Mangiapane being found later in the drafts and that's when you start to look like a Stanley Cup team. I think the Flames did plenty good at the spots they got to draft in, they just didn't get the spots they needed.

Looking back at the Flames over the last decade, I find it hard not to think that it's irresponsible for teams who are in bubble spots to not sell at the trade deadline. Even if it's for a less than stellar return at the deadline, because subtracting from your roster to create death march for the remainder of the season increases the value of your 1st round pick significantly.

I think you are right that the Flames were that close to getting the formula right. It really boils down to elite talent at the top of the draft supplemented by home run picks in the later rounds. The Flames hit a grand slam with Gaudreau, who essentially looking back, is probably the 2nd best player out of his draft class. TB manged to do this twice with Kucherov and Pointe which goes a long way to explain their success.

There is an alternate dimension out there where if Gaudreau got sent down or stayed in college one more year and the Flames end up getting a Meier, Rantanen, or Werenski on top of keeping those two 2nds rounders they flipped to get Hamilton. Teliving probably doesn't rush things and the Hamonic trade probably also doesn't happen as well as a few of those FA signings.