[News] Wolf named AHL MVP and goaltender of the year

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Not liking someone's voice on pbp =/= sexism, or even an attack on that person's character until such motivations are uncovered beyond simply not liking the fit and stating such.

She may be an awesome human and i bet she is too, but being awesome people doesn't and really shouldn't make us immune to honest opinions, unfounded or not.

I would side with Fotze if he just worded it as "I vehemently disagree, she's an awesome person and is great in the role."

But instead he went from 0-100 and attempted to be as personally insulting as possible, instead of just criticizing the post itself which is the high road and the right road to take in this instance.

It's behaviour like that which needs to go and it can if every poster would (to borrow from the doll lookin' fellow up the road) to a man just take a moment and breathe before hitting send on these reactionary posts.

If we want an enjoyable forum to visit this season when we inevitably disagree on things we need to each do our part to improve the experience.

Being insulting is only allowed when it’s about aliens. You’re also allowed to tell people they deserve violence… if it’s about aliens.

Being insulting is also allowed if it’s about announcers who are also posters. If it’s about people who insult announcers who are also posters, however, then everybody please be nIcE.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by blender

Isn't accusing someone of virtue signaling basically just virtue signaling?

Is there a more pointless phrase in the current internet lexicon?

Definitely. .can't you tell how virtuous I am?
Isn't calling someone out as a virtue signaller for calling something a virtue signal also virtue signaling?
In that case looks like we can all join the same club. /s

[blender]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Definitely. .can't you tell how virtuous I am?
Isn't calling someone out as a virtue signaller for calling something a virtue signal also virtue signaling?
In that case looks like we can all join the same club. /s

Yes, that's exactly my point.
And I wasn't particularly trying to single you out either, so no offense intended.

[Njord]

So what does any of this have to do with Wolf playing in the AHL this, next year being the backup, and the year after the starting goalie?

[FanIn80]

I dunno what you guys are on about right meow, buuuuut... I'm now starting to wonder if another year in the AHL would actually be detremental to him.

Here's last year's goalie stats: https://theahl.com/stats/player-stat...fied=qualified

It's crazy how far ahead of everyone else he is. Is a third season there really going to challenge him at all? Is there not a concern that his development will stagnate or that he'll get too used to a lower quality of hockey?

Like the goal in developing a player shouldn't be to have them "hone their game at a lower level." It should be to contiuously challenge them to become better and better. Shots and harder, faster and more accurate in the NHL. Cross-crease plays are snappier and are much less bobbled. Breakaways are faster with quicker and more creative moves.

Like think about who plays in the AHL... players who aren't good enough to play in the NHL. There are players on every team in the NHL who haven't never played a single game in the AHL. I just feel like goalies are much more reflexive and muscle memory oriented than players are, and if he's down there for a third year of his reflexes and muscle memory tuned around players who aren't good enough to play in the NHL, what's gonna happen when he plays in the NHL?

Edit: Also, I didn't mean this to sound as panicky as it does. It's just conversation (but also a bit of "ruh roh", if that makes any sense).

[Jay Random]

It appears to me that the current plan is to break Wolf into the NHL gradually at first, and promote him full-time (assuming he doesn't blow it badly) when an opportunity comes to move out one of the other goalies.

If he plays some games in the AHL and some in the NHL, at least he's playing, which is far better than sitting on the bench as the backup, and infinitely better than being the #3 guy who sits in the press box and doesn't even get his own net in practice.

The Flames desperately need quality goaltending this year, and they have three shots at getting it. If they waive or demote either Markstrom or Vladar to make room for Wolf, they'll have only two. I don't think anybody can say with any confidence which of those three goalies is going to earn the starter's job this year. Since Wolf is the only one of the three who doesn't have to clear waivers, he's the only one who can get whatever benefit there is from playing AHL games.

I suspect a lot of teams, when their starting goalie is on a hot streak, would like to send their backup down to the AHL to get a couple of games in and scrape off the rust; but the waiver rules don't allow it. It's an advantage, not a disadvantage, to have that option.

[shutout]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Like the goal in developing a player shouldn't be to have them "hone their game at a lower level." It should be to contiuously challenge them to become better and better. Shots and harder, faster and more accurate in the NHL. Cross-crease plays are snappier and are much less bobbled. Breakaways are faster with quicker and more creative moves.

Like think about who plays in the AHL... players who aren't good enough to play in the NHL. There are players on every team in the NHL who haven't never played a single game in the AHL. I just feel like goalies are much more reflexive and muscle memory oriented than players are, and if he's down there for a third year of his reflexes and muscle memory tuned around players who aren't good enough to play in the NHL, what's gonna happen when he plays in the NHL?

The other side to it is that the AHL is less structured and has worse defensive coverage than the NHL. For a goaltender in the AHL you are seeing far more quality chances against than you would see in the NHL.

While there is a drop in talent in the AHL the biggest difference between players at the NHL and AHL level is their processing speed. How quick they think the game and can recognize problems or opportunities and adapt. In the AHL there are lots of good skilled players and shooters. In the game they cant process fast enough but against an opposing goalie they can generate scoring chances.

Biggest thing for any player developing and especially a goaltender is to get playing time. Far better to be playing 65 games in the AHL than 20 games in the NHL to continue to work on skills, tactics, and confidence.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I dunno what you guys are on about right meow, buuuuut... I'm now starting to wonder if another year in the AHL would actually be detremental to him.

Here's last year's goalie stats: https://theahl.com/stats/player-stat...fied=qualified

It's crazy how far ahead of everyone else he is. Is a third season there really going to challenge him at all? Is there not a concern that his development will stagnate or that he'll get too used to a lower quality of hockey?

Like the goal in developing a player shouldn't be to have them "hone their game at a lower level." It should be to contiuously challenge them to become better and better. Shots and harder, faster and more accurate in the NHL. Cross-crease plays are snappier and are much less bobbled. Breakaways are faster with quicker and more creative moves.

Like think about who plays in the AHL... players who aren't good enough to play in the NHL. There are players on every team in the NHL who haven't never played a single game in the AHL. I just feel like goalies are much more reflexive and muscle memory oriented than players are, and if he's down there for a third year of his reflexes and muscle memory tuned around players who aren't good enough to play in the NHL, what's gonna happen when he plays in the NHL?

Edit: Also, I didn't mean this to sound as panicky as it does. It's just conversation (but also a bit of "ruh roh", if that makes any sense).

That is why I keep coming back to this thread. It just makes no sense to me that Dustin Wolf's growth isn't more important than the return you might get for Vladar. Last year they were really conservative with using Wolf. They had a great chance when Markstrom had a baby. And I would hate to see it continue this year where Wolf is sent down at times because there isn't room for him.

He has shown the last 2 years that he is too good for the AHL. So if you send him down there just because its convenient, you are telling him, and the team, that not matter what you do to earn your time, its never enough. Wasn't that a big thing around here? Always earned?

And if the worry is getting enough starts, as long as you give him chances and he earns more, I doubt there will be a problem. Again, its not like the goalie situation is great right now.

And you guys love to bring up the mental side of it. That the organization has been open about a plan and communicated it to Wolf. That is well and good, but what is the organization telling him by sending him down after he accomplished everything in that league? What is the organization saying when he gets his weekly AHL check instead of an NHL one? Are they really showing him that they believe in him? I challenge all of you think think if you were in a position in your career where you have killed it and your organization doesn't put any faith in you. Doesn't give you the shot you have earned and deserve. Most of us would start looking for a new job. At the very least we would have a pretty sour opinion of the organization.

Last bit... I truly hope all of this is hypothetical and he gets a true chance this year and never goes back down. Most of my argument is against all the posters that say "hey the AHL team is here too and he's waiver exempt so we can send him down whenever". I think that is a silly attitude to take with the best prospect you have for the reasons above.

[bax]

Originally Posted by dobbles

That is why I keep coming back to this thread. It just makes no sense to me that Dustin Wolf's growth isn't more important than the return you might get for Vladar. Last year they were really conservative with using Wolf. They had a great chance when Markstrom had a baby. And I would hate to see it continue this year where Wolf is sent down at times because there isn't room for him.

He has shown the last 2 years that he is too good for the AHL. So if you send him down there just because its convenient, you are telling him, and the team, that not matter what you do to earn your time, its never enough. Wasn't that a big thing around here? Always earned?

And if the worry is getting enough starts, as long as you give him chances and he earns more, I doubt there will be a problem. Again, its not like the goalie situation is great right now.

And you guys love to bring up the mental side of it. That the organization has been open about a plan and communicated it to Wolf. That is well and good, but what is the organization telling him by sending him down after he accomplished everything in that league? What is the organization saying when he gets his weekly AHL check instead of an NHL one? Are they really showing him that they believe in him? I challenge all of you think think if you were in a position in your career where you have killed it and your organization doesn't put any faith in you. Doesn't give you the shot you have earned and deserve. Most of us would start looking for a new job. At the very least we would have a pretty sour opinion of the organization.

Last bit... I truly hope all of this is hypothetical and he gets a true chance this year and never goes back down. Most of my argument is against all the posters that say "hey the AHL team is here too and he's waiver exempt so we can send him down whenever". I think that is a silly attitude to take with the best prospect you have for the reasons above.

The best thing for Wolf right now is to play as many games as possible. Nobody is saying the return for Vladar is more important than Wolf’s development. You don’t just throwaway one of Markstrom or Vladar for the opportunity to sit Wolf on the bench of 55 games.

There is perfectly clear path that allows you to do the following:

1) Have Wolf play a starter’s workload that includes games in both the AHL and the NHL. If you trade Vladar before camp then Wolf won’t be playing a starter’s workload this season.

2) Buys evaluation time for all three goalies. The organization can see where each guy is at mentally and physically. You say Markstrom and Vladar aren’t great, but Markstrom is 1 season removed from being a Vezina finalist and Vladar is only 4 years older for Wolf. Still young for a goalie.

3) Gives Conroy some time to make a trade. Teams will run into injuries and eventually someone will meet his asking price on Vladar. Who knows, maybe even one our 3 goalies could get hurt. If the goal is to compete this season (and it is) why would you give away the depth? Conroy needs to build a reputation as GM that won’t accept less than his asking price, other wise he will get walked all over.

I don’t think anybody expects the Flames to roll with 3 goalies all season, but for a month or two while they see how it plays out? I don’t think it’s a problem at all.

Also your insistence that Wolf will be offended or jaded by this plan is a bit silly to me. I would think a professional athlete (especially one of his caliber) has a much greater mental fortitude than that.

If Wolf blows the doors off camp and is head and shoulders better than Vladar by all means make a trade, but there is no reason to force one before camp has even started.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by shutout

The other side to it is that the AHL is less structured and has worse defensive coverage than the NHL. For a goaltender in the AHL you are seeing far more quality chances against than you would see in the NHL.

While there is a drop in talent in the AHL the biggest difference between players at the NHL and AHL level is their processing speed. How quick they think the game and can recognize problems or opportunities and adapt. In the AHL there are lots of good skilled players and shooters. In the game they cant process fast enough but against an opposing goalie they can generate scoring chances.

Biggest thing for any player developing and especially a goaltender is to get playing time. Far better to be playing 65 games in the AHL than 20 games in the NHL to continue to work on skills, tactics, and confidence.

I would add in shot accuracy (especially the elite players) and that will be a significant one when it comes to Wolf due to his size.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by dobbles

And you guys love to bring up the mental side of it. That the organization has been open about a plan and communicated it to Wolf. That is well and good, but what is the organization telling him by sending him down after he accomplished everything in that league? What is the organization saying when he gets his weekly AHL check instead of an NHL one? Are they really showing him that they believe in him? I challenge all of you think think if you were in a position in your career where you have killed it and your organization doesn't put any faith in you. Doesn't give you the shot you have earned and deserve. Most of us would start looking for a new job. At the very least we would have a pretty sour opinion of the organization.

Last bit... I truly hope all of this is hypothetical and he gets a true chance this year and never goes back down. Most of my argument is against all the posters that say "hey the AHL team is here too and he's waiver exempt so we can send him down whenever". I think that is a silly attitude to take with the best prospect you have for the reasons above.

I'm more concerned about the financial aspect of keeping Wolf in the AHL for most of the season over the development risk of having him play more AHL games. It really would be annoying to be one of the top 2 goalies in the organization and be earning 10% or less of his NHL contract whenever the Flames send him down for starts in the AHL.

Dustin Wolf’s cap hit or annual average salary, excluding all bonuses, is $813,333. The Flames’ goalie has managed an annual average salary, including all bonuses of $825,000 for the current season 2022-23.

Wolf's package comprised a signing bonus of $85,000 upon joining the Flames. His base salary for the NHL's 2022-23 season is $750,000, and his minors salary is $70,000.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/ice-hock...-flames-goalie

It does seem like a needlessly risky move for the Flames to take with their relationship to their top prospect. They know him and if him and his agent seem to understand and agree with the approach, then maybe I am worrying for nothing.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by dobbles

Are they really showing him that they believe in him? I challenge all of you think think if you were in a position in your career where you have killed it and your organization doesn't put any faith in you.

Multiple members of the organization have spoke highly of him and talked about him being ready. Conroy, Sigalet, .etc.

Both of their current goalies are under contract and they aren't going to just give away Vladar for a bag of pucks even if you think they should. He may go back and forth the first month or two but I highly doubt Conroy is interested in doing it for the whole season.

[bdubbs]

Hasn't Wolf also said that he just wants to play as much as he can, regardless of where?

Seems like the kid is less worried than us forum dwellers.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by bdubbs

Hasn't Wolf also said that he just wants to play as much as he can, regardless of where?

Seems like the kid is less worried than us forum dwellers.

The hand wringing is super weird on this one. People are acting like they know better than Wolf how Wolf should feel about it and that the Flames are… lying? for some reason? or something?

Bizarre.

[Inferno]

A quote from Wolf:

https://www.nhl.com/news/calgary-fla...am/c-345580264

"They know that I'm trying to push the barrier and make things hard on them to make decisions," Wolf said. "That's just been their message -- no matter what happens, if you start up or start down (in the minors) next season that you just keep doing what you're doing and your opportunity is going to come.

"Obviously you hope your opportunity comes sooner rather than later, and just try to keep pushing to make it hard on them."

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by bdubbs

Hasn't Wolf also said that he just wants to play as much as he can, regardless of where?

Seems like the kid is less worried than us forum dwellers.

As I said above, his attitude speaks volumes to his character. Its great that he wants to do his part. I am more commenting on what it says the attitude of the Flames is that they seem to value him so little. I emphasize the word seem to reiterate that it just doesn't appear they are rolling out the red carpet. Again, I keep thinking about any other situation outside of sports. You roll out the red carpet for your top performers. But in sports, fans get some warped idea that players have to all love the teams they play for regardless of how they are treated. Its such a one sided toxic relationship. But good on Wolf for being a shining example of that humble hockey player we all are used to. (not sarcasm BTW)

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The hand wringing is super weird on this one. People are acting like they know better than Wolf how Wolf should feel about it and that the Flames are… lying? for some reason? or something?

Bizarre.

Lets be honest. It's basically just me. And it's not something I lose sleep over. I personally feel like lots of organizations in sports are not willing to give youth a chance. So I like to talk about it. (it actually goes back to my Wings days when they used to overcook their prospects) I think what I find so fascinating about this specific circumstance is that it is pretty black and white. This is not a tweener situation where there is not much impact. This is no Jamie Lundmark or Matthew Phillips. This is your potential franchise goalie. The stakes couldn't be much higher. And the dude has hit homerun after homerun. And the response from the fan base is "have fun in the AHL while we try and drum up a 4th round pick in exchange for Dan Vladar".

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by bax

The best thing for Wolf right now is to play as many games as possible. Nobody is saying the return for Vladar is more important than Wolf’s development. You don’t just throwaway one of Markstrom or Vladar for the opportunity to sit Wolf on the bench of 55 games.

There is perfectly clear path that allows you to do the following:

1) Have Wolf play a starter’s workload that includes games in both the AHL and the NHL. If you trade Vladar before camp then Wolf won’t be playing a starter’s workload this season.

2) Buys evaluation time for all three goalies. The organization can see where each guy is at mentally and physically. You say Markstrom and Vladar aren’t great, but Markstrom is 1 season removed from being a Vezina finalist and Vladar is only 4 years older for Wolf. Still young for a goalie.

3) Gives Conroy some time to make a trade. Teams will run into injuries and eventually someone will meet his asking price on Vladar. Who knows, maybe even one our 3 goalies could get hurt. If the goal is to compete this season (and it is) why would you give away the depth? Conroy needs to build a reputation as GM that won’t accept less than his asking price, other wise he will get walked all over.

I don’t think anybody expects the Flames to roll with 3 goalies all season, but for a month or two while they see how it plays out? I don’t think it’s a problem at all.

Also your insistence that Wolf will be offended or jaded by this plan is a bit silly to me. I would think a professional athlete (especially one of his caliber) has a much greater mental fortitude than that.

If Wolf blows the doors off camp and is head and shoulders better than Vladar by all means make a trade, but there is no reason to force one before camp has even started.

Meant to grab this post too but forgot....

About the bolded, that is where I disagree. While playing time is important, it shouldn't be the only factor. And honestly that playing time can be counter productive. He has gotten over 100 games in the AHL. He is seasoned. He is ready. Sure I don't think anyone wants him getting the McElhinney treatment where he only gets to play once a month, but I think the expectation should already be him as a 1b. Unless Markstrom has a huge rebound year, I think he should be the 1a this year which allows Wolf to ease in and then be ready next year for full time starter duty. And I am optimistic enough about Wolf that I could see him taking over this year based on performance. I think it would be much better for his career if he played 30 NHL games than 50 AHL games.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by dobbles

Meant to grab this post too but forgot....

About the bolded, that is where I disagree. While playing time is important, it shouldn't be the only factor. And honestly that playing time can be counter productive. He has gotten over 100 games in the AHL. He is seasoned. He is ready. Sure I don't think anyone wants him getting the McElhinney treatment where he only gets to play once a month, but I think the expectation should already be him as a 1b. Unless Markstrom has a huge rebound year, I think he should be the 1a this year which allows Wolf to ease in and then be ready next year for full time starter duty. And I am optimistic enough about Wolf that I could see him taking over this year based on performance. I think it would be much better for his career if he played 30 NHL games than 50 AHL games.

What about 30 NHL games and 20 AHL games?

[bax]

Originally Posted by dobbles

Meant to grab this post too but forgot....

About the bolded, that is where I disagree. While playing time is important, it shouldn't be the only factor. And honestly that playing time can be counter productive. He has gotten over 100 games in the AHL. He is seasoned. He is ready. Sure I don't think anyone wants him getting the McElhinney treatment where he only gets to play once a month, but I think the expectation should already be him as a 1b. Unless Markstrom has a huge rebound year, I think he should be the 1a this year which allows Wolf to ease in and then be ready next year for full time starter duty. And I am optimistic enough about Wolf that I could see him taking over this year based on performance. I think it would be much better for his career if he played 30 NHL games than 50 AHL games.

That is most likely what will happen by the end of the season. Wolf will get his time in the NHL without sacrificing a bunch of playing time. We have the luxury to do this so why not take advantage of it?

Markstrom will be given every chance to prove he is still a top goalie in the league.

We both want Wolf in the NHL, my point is just that there is zero reason for Conroy to force a trade before camp has even started. That is short sighted.

The market will only grow for Vladar. Guys will get injured, veterans will disappoint in camp. Heck what if we traded Vladar today and then Markstrom tears an ACL in the pre-season? We go into the season with Wolf and Dansk as our tandem?

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What about 30 NHL games and 20 AHL games?

Throw in new Toyota Camry and you got a deal!

For real though, and I will probably make this my last post as I just keep repeating myself, but even if he plays 20 AHL games, I don't think they have much developmental value and even have the potential for messing with his head. I guess for me, if he stays with the team all year and just played 30 in the NHL and has a decent showing, I call that a success. I just feel like a full year in the NHL making that NHL cash, getting experience with his teammates, getting used to the increased fan/media exposure, etc would be way more beneficial than some extra starts to get him reps.

If he was coming in as Kippers backup and could only expect 10 or 15 games it would be a different story. But I think he can earn enough starts to keep from getting rusty. Being with full time NHL players every day and getting to learn from them has tremendous value as well.