[Trade] Toffoli to Flames for 2022 1st *, 2023 5th, Heineman, and Pitlick

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Hockey-and_stuff

Even if you're Team Rebuild (I am) the Flames were division leaders and looked like legit contenders for a Cup run. It was absolutely the right time to sacrifice the future for a win now piece.

It sucks that it didn't work out but that doesn't make it a bad call, even in hindsight.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

I argued against this at that time, many pages on here about it, not well received as you can imagine.

We were incredibly small, with questionable defence and a very overplayed older goalie.

I know it looks like hindsight now, but our team was essentially a few high scoring smaller forwards, several of which could be easily shut down in more physical playoff action. What we had was an abundance of forwards who were in their contract year and already playing at their most elevated level before the playoffs even started.

We simply never had a cup core to begin with. If we did, then you could maybe justify giving up a first rounder but you gotta be really sure for that.

[Flamesfan05]

Treliving gambled and went all in

He lost and went home

Time to move on

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Toffoli gone, never got us anywhere.


Heineman now knocking on the door.

Another year and we'll have a sense of the 2022 first rounders we missed out on.



I'm assuming a bunch on here still thought sacrificing our future was a great move.

It is not the type of move I think the club needed to make but sacrificing our future by giving up a late first and nothing prospect is a little hyperbolic.

This trade may have delayed us a full year from being a contender. And people loved it. We've got an entire 5-7 year rebuild phase to remind them how much they loved it, and other trades like it.

It certainly didn't delay us from being a contender, LOL

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Essentially, if your trade is only designed to be in your favor for 1 year and you don't win the cup that year, yeah. It's exactly like you said.

That's why trades should be designed to be favorable over a 10 year span.

Make a dozen 1-year trades and you end up where we are now.

How does one get a favorable deal for a decade? That’s a ridiculous take and you know it.

I’m not acquiring Toffoli in hopes my team in 2033 is good.

[GioforPM]

10 years? Toffoli was on a 4 year contract. Flames took him for 1.5 of those years, the first in which they were a solid contender, finishing first in the division. And Toffoli was solid value for that period of time. They paid a first plus an OK prospect who has one year left on his contract (the rest was negligible value). Having used up all but one year of his deal, they then sold him for a third (a great pick in Suniev) and a decent prospect/roster player in Sharangovich. That seems fair asset management.

[Reggie Dunlop]

If only Conroy had signed Pitlick as a free agent this summer, we wouldn't be having this conversation.... oh well.... our loss is NYR's gain.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

How does one get a favorable deal for a decade? That’s a ridiculous take and you know it.

I’m not acquiring Toffoli in hopes my team in 2033 is good.

Not sure if you're aware but most of the key pieces of that "contender" people are referring to are the results of moves and acquisitions that were made 10+ years ago.


Gaudreau and on.

The draft pick we gave up sets us back for 10+ years if they turn out. The simple answer to your question is don't give up draft picks unless you have a really good reason and really good plan that will justify it in the long term. That's all.

Again this wasn't BT's worst trade. I just never got past this one because people went nuts at the thought of any criticism to it. If you think 10 years is too long to think then explain me the contracts BT signed.

Every move should be an investment in the future.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Suniev would change everything. Would be full credit to Conroy and scouting staff for that, but yes it really would change the whole dynamic.

The first round pick is a little more complicated to evaluate than Mesar, because the Flames most certainly would have picked higher than him without this trade.

Actually, no. But mostly because the draft order rules are kinda dumb:

1. The teams that did not qualify for the playoffs the previous season (picks 1–16)
2. The teams that made the playoffs in the previous season but did not win either their division in the regular season or play in the Conference Finals (picks 17–24 up to 28)
3. The teams that won their divisions in the previous season but did not play in the Conference Finals (potentially picks 25–28)
4. The teams that lose in Conference Finals (picks 29 and 30)
5. The team that was the runner-up in the Stanley Cup Finals (pick 31)
6. The team that won the Stanley Cup in the previous season (pick 32)

We won the division by 7 points over Edmonton...if we managed to somehow lose the division we might have picked 21 or 22. We had a pretty comfortable (but certainly not certain) lead in the division at the time of the trade...I suspect Brad was smart enough to factor that into his valuation of the pick.

[devo22]

Toffoli scored 45 goals and 96 points in 119 games for the Flames ... I'd say that's a pretty healthy return of investment. 1st round picks are obviously great currency in this league, but it's not exactly a given that a Filip Mesar will ever have a season like Toffoli just had for the Flames.

You're talking about this as if it was a sunken cost, but we got 1.5 years of great service from Toffoli and then turned him into a younger forward in Sharangovich and a pretty exciting prospect in Suniev. So I still don't really get what you're so pissed about, this string of trades worked pretty well for the Flames.

[robertsfanatic]

because you bumped this thread it caused me to like a Spurs post....are you happy now????

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by devo22

Toffoli scored 45 goals and 96 points in 119 games for the Flames ... I'd say that's a pretty healthy return of investment. 1st round picks are obviously great currency in this league, but it's not exactly a given that a Filip Mesar will ever have a season like Toffoli just had for the Flames.

You're talking about this as if it was a sunken cost, but we got 1.5 years of great service from Toffoli and then turned him into a younger forward in Sharangovich and a pretty exciting prospect in Suniev. So I still don't really get what you're so pissed about, this string of trades worked pretty well for the Flames.

Conroy did a great salvage. The interesting thing about that, though, is fans were generally angry about it, it received quite a negative reaction even though it's the only good thing that happened out of this. He couldn't just recoup a first rounder though, and there's a reason he couldn't. Also can't do a direct compare with Mesar because BT artificially increased our rank in the short term, with no long term plan of sustaining it, leading us to current state. The pick would have been quite a bit higher.

We got more goals for a few games on an aging team fundamentally designed for the regular season only.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Again this wasn't BT's worst trade. I just never got past this one because people went nuts at the thought of any criticism to it.

How nuts did people go? More nuts than obsessing about people disagreeing with your opinion of the trade and admitting you haven’t gotten over it 1.5 years later? Were they going that nuts?

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

Wow almost like it was a huge waste of everyone's time to bump this thread then yeah?

A lot of people have a tendency to make the same mistakes over and over and over again without learning from them.

For them, this will be a waste of time

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

How nuts did people go? More nuts than obsessing about people disagreeing with your opinion of the trade and admitting you haven’t gotten over it 1.5 years later? Were they going that nuts?

just wait until the 2022 draft picks emerge.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

How nuts did people go? More nuts than obsessing about people disagreeing with your opinion of the trade and admitting you haven’t gotten over it 1.5 years later? Were they going that nuts?

Is a year and a half thatlong time of a time or something

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Conroy did a great salvage. The interesting thing about that, though, is fans were generally angry about it, it received quite a negative reaction even though it's the only good thing that happened out of this. He couldn't just recoup a first rounder though, and there's a reason he couldn't. Also can't do a direct compare with Mesar because BT artificially increased our rank in the short term, with no long term plan of sustaining it, leading us to current state. The pick would have been quite a bit higher.

We got more goals for a few games on an aging team fundamentally designed for the regular season only.

So the guy that shouldn't have acquired artificially increased the team's standing and that's a bad thing?

Isn't that what any GM would hope for when you do a deadline (pre) deal for a team with playoff aspirations.

And you pay a rental price but get him two years.

And the team recoups the asset a year early and moves on.

There is literally nothing to complain about here.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So the guy that shouldn't have acquired artificially increased the team's standing and that's a bad thing?

Isn't that what any GM would hope for when you do a deadline (pre) deal for a team with playoff aspirations.

And you pay a rental price but get him two years.

And the team recoups the asset a year early and moves on.

There is literally nothing to complain about here.

It’s not just the whining, it’s the need to let other people know they’re not as smart as you like to think you are.

[CFO]

If anyone has issues I'd be more worried about the outcome for the pick given up to kraken originally for pitlick

[Always Earned Never Given]

Originally Posted by CFO

If anyone has issues I'd be more worried about the outcome for the pick given up to kraken originally for pitlick

Tucker Robertson

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

just wait until the 2022 draft picks emerge.

Am I supposed to wait until 2033?