[Trade] Toffoli to Flames for 2022 1st *, 2023 5th, Heineman, and Pitlick

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

They need a future, is what they need. Whether they need forwards or not is really besides the point because there isn't any Stanley Cup for them this year, they've traded away most of their picks/prospects, and most of their forwards are in their 30's on disaster contracts. This trade was a part of that. Someone on here joked about losing two first rounders, they forget the role this trade and subsequent contract had in losing a first rounder with Monahan too.

It's pretty obvious that people will just blame the goalie, that's hockey fans 101. It's also kind of irrelevant, the problem runs quite deep. It's past a strict positional issue.

If you think I'm just trying to get a rise out of people you may want to go back and have a quick look at the standings.

No I'm good ... I know the standings. I'm just not 100% with you on how you're extrapolating.

The Flames have their 1st and 2nd in each of the next three drafts and their third in 2 of the next 3.

They have all of their 2019, 2020 and 2021 first round picks still in the system.

So not sure where you're going with "they've traded away most of their picks/prospects"

[Hack&Lube]

For all the people complaining about Toffoli, here are some players making more money than him:

Blake Coleman
Andrew Mangiapane
Milan Lucic
Michael Backlund

I personally think he has no chemistry with Huberdeau and questionable amounts with Lindholm and we need to play other players with him but regardless of that, it's a steal.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

For all the people complaining about Toffoli, here are some players making more money than him:

Blake Coleman
Andrew Mangiapane
Milan Lucic
Michael Backlund

I personally think he has no chemistry with Huberdeau and questionable amounts with Lindholm and we need to play other players with him but regardless of that, it's a steal.

You can make a case that Trelivings best decision of the off season was not giving Mangiapane 8 years around $7 mil a year.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

If we are to flip Toffoli now, what would be his value? We need everyone to score more goals so I don't think one individual is going to set us back as much.

Tyler Toffoli @ 5v5 this year, among Flame forwards:

GF% - 61.05 - 4th
xGF% - 57.57 - 2nd
GF/60 - 2.75 - 4th
GA/60 - 1.76 - 3rd
SF/60 - 34.17 - 5th
SA/60 - 22.92 - 1st

That’s a top-6 forward doing elite defensive work.

We’re not trading that at the deadline. We should be trying to find another player exactly like it.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Tyler Toffoli @ 5v5 this year, among Flame forwards:

GF% - 61.05 - 4th
xGF% - 57.57 - 2nd
GF/60 - 2.75 - 4th
GA/60 - 1.76 - 3rd
SF/60 - 34.17 - 5th
SA/60 - 22.92 - 1st

That’s a top-6 forward doing elite defensive work.

We’re not trading that at the deadline. We should be trying to find another player exactly like it.

Elite defensive forward who also has 10 goals? Why people are blaming him is beyond me. If you factor in what you expect from a player he might be one of few playing above that epxectation.

Kadri, Mangiapane and Dube early in the season were getting huge praise despite not being very good in their own end.

You struggle to score for a few games and the blame always goes on our best defensive players. Always seems to happen but Mangiapane is paid to score goals and PK. He's not doing much for scoring and his line often is bad in their own end.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Elite defensive forward who also has 10 goals? Why people are blaming him is beyond me. If you factor in what you expect from a player he might be one of few playing above that epxectation.

Kadri, Mangiapane and Dube early in the season were getting huge praise despite not being very good in their own end.

You struggle to score for a few games and the blame always goes on our best defensive players. Always seems to happen but Mangiapane is paid to score goals and PK. He's not doing much for scoring and his line often is bad in their own end.

Toffoli has been solid, and made me re-think him.

Last year it seemed like too many plays were dying on his stick and that he had lost a step and couldn't keep up.

This year he's no burner, but he seems to have better hands to buy himself more time.

I try really hard not to have guys I like or don't like on the team, try to avoid biases and watch and hope for the team as a collective. But Toffoli was certainly creeping into my bad list last year. Not the case at all any more.

Now I'm fighting a Kadri urge.

Maybe I don't like new guys.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Toffoli has been solid, and made me re-think him.

Last year it seemed like too many plays were dying on his stick and that he had lost a step and couldn't keep up.

This year he's no burner, but he seems to have better hands to buy himself more time.

I try really hard not to have guys I like or don't like on the team, try to avoid biases and watch and hope for the team as a collective. But Toffoli was certainly creeping into my bad list last year. Not the case at all any more.

Now I'm fighting a Kadri urge.

Maybe I don't like new guys.

Kadri's contributition probably was been over rated a bit this year. He has over 50% of his points on the PP and his line defensively has been bad.

Toffoli IMO has been great, he's just not really a first line player. Great 2nd line guy and he's paid like a great 3rd line player. It's not his fault he is on the first line and it's not working. He doesn't make the lines.

Sutter needs to mix up the top 2 lines and split up the only 2 righties on the top 2 lines.

I wouldn't be against Toffoli with Backlund either. I get what you are saying he isn't very creative (I was swearing at him with a tired PK on the PP throwing a puck from a bad angle right at the goalie for easy save and face off) but he is being deployed in a situation where he needs to be creative. That is not his fault.

Sutter also hasn't tried Huberdeau with Kadri much either. Mangipane has been bad but he could click with Lindholm and Huderdeau or Kadri and Huberdeau. Sutter mixed it up once and went with Huberdeau with Backlund? lol IMO that is terrible.

If the Flames want to be an elite team they need to get Huberdeau playing like the elite LW he is. Toffli is a great 2nd line guy as he can score you some goals and do it playing with checking type players and do it playing great defensive hockey. It's not working with Huberdeau time for Sutter to move on from it

[Erick Estrada]

I've been thinking over the past few weeks if there's a deal to be made between the Flames and Avs where they can unload Kadri. That contract is giving me the jitters and since the first month of the season IMO he hasn't been very good nor is his effort levels at times. Makes some lazy plays and doesn't use his linemates well. I just think it would be easier to get out of the deal earlier than later. I don't fault the GM for signing him but the fit hasn't looked good and this team is starting to look a little too old.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I've been thinking over the past few weeks if there's a deal to be made between the Flames and Avs where they can unload Kadri. That contract is giving me the jitters and since the first month of the season IMO he hasn't been very good nor is his effort levels at times. Makes some lazy plays and doesn't use his linemates well. I just think it would be easier to get out of the deal earlier than later. I don't fault the GM for signing him but the fit hasn't looked good and this team is starting to look a little too old.

I bet he would be on the Avs still if they were anywhere close on a contract. Unless the Flames retained significantly I don’t see it.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I bet he would be on the Avs still if they were anywhere close on a contract. Unless the Flames retained significantly I don’t see it.

I think the Avs may be a little more desperate now than they were in the offseason the way their season has gone with injuries and 2nd line issues. They have missed him. I would be okay (Tre may not of course) with retaining money if they were to give up some high draft capital and the Flames would have to take on a bit of salary of course. This is pie in the sky because I know that the Flames still fancy themselves as contenders.

[Macho0978]

Some of the advanced stats and line combos suggest that Kadri and Dube have played better without Mangiapane. Also, in limited minutes Toffoli and Kadri have been good together.

Lindholm Huberdeau and Mangiapane is a line lots wanted to start the year.

IMO this is the way to go to try and get some chemistry. If they flip Mangiapane and Toffoli I think this will be a better mix 5 on 5.

If anyone needs to be taking heat it is Sutter, but Sutter has a good history of finding the right line combos and doesn't always just start with what everyone else wants.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think the Avs may be a little more desperate now than they were in the offseason the way their season has gone with injuries and 2nd line issues. They have missed him. I would be okay (Tre may not of course) with retaining money if they were to give up some high draft capital.

Their 2nd line issues are to do with injuries. Landeskog hasn't played a game this year and now the whole team is hurt. They are still a playoff team despite this so they have 0 issues and are not a desperate team. They are the champs, not sure how anyone could say they are desperate.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Their 2nd line issues are to do with injuries. Landeskog hasn't played a game this year and now the whole team is hurt. They are still a playoff team despite this so they have 0 issues and are not a desperate team. They are the champs, not sure how anyone could say they are desperate.

Landeskog isn't a center and they were having issues this season from the start before injuries.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Landeskog isn't a center and they were having issues this season from the start before injuries.

You said 2nd line issues. If Landeskog was healthy along with Nichuskin, Mackinnon and Rantanen 1 would have to be a 2nd line player. They would have 2 good lines if everyone was healthy.

The Avs are so good they can slip below .500 by the mid point of the season and easily make the playoffs. They aren't a team they will make a desperate move.

Kadri just signed 7 years here, he's not being traded either. This type of move never happens unless they player asked to be traded

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

You said 2nd line issues. If Landeskog was healthy along with Nichuskin, Mackinnon and Rantanen 1 would have to be a 2nd line player. They would have 2 good lines if everyone was healthy.

The Avs are so good they can slip below .500 by the mid point of the season and easily make the playoffs. They aren't a team they will make a desperate move.

Kadri just signed 7 years here, he's not being traded either. This type of move never happens unless they player asked to be traded

I don't know. The Jets have missed Ehlers all season and they have managed just fine. I would think the cup champs could manage without a winger. They will make the playoffs absolutely but they aren't as good as they were last season and the expectations to repeat are high.

Who said it would happen or was realistic? I did mention it was pie in the sky or did you miss that?

[FlamesAddiction]

I think the Avs are just having a typically Stanley Cup hang over. After going through the intensity of a full playoff run, a lot of teams struggle with the monotony of the regular season the following season. As the games start getting more meaningful, they will probably ramp up big time.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't know. The Jets have missed Ehlers all season and they have managed just fine. I would think the cup champs could manage without a winger. They will make the playoffs absolutely but they aren't as good as they were last season and the expectations to repeat are high.

Who said it would happen or was realistic? I did mention it was pie in the sky or did you miss that?

The Avs are missing more than Landeskog though. Nichuskin has been hurt for awhile now, Mackinnon is hurt now too and missed 3 games.

They also have had a bunch of other minor injuries than just those 3. Stil 14 and 10 and not a desperate team IMO

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

The Avs are missing more than Landeskog though. Nichuskin has been hurt for awhile now, Mackinnon is hurt now too and missed 3 games.

They also have had a bunch of other minor injuries than just those 3. Stil 14 and 10 and not a desperate team IMO

With all their injuries and needing a center, watch them trade for Monahan and then do the LTIR carousel ride all the way to the playoffs.

[jjgallow]

Toffoli gone, never got us anywhere.


Heineman now knocking on the door.

Another year and we'll have a sense of the 2022 first rounders we missed out on.



I'm assuming a bunch on here still thought sacrificing our future was a great move.


It's going to get a lot more debatable this season. And next season. And the season after that.


All for a rental that got us nowhere.


I fully admit, this was not BT's worst trade lol. there were many trades which were far, far worse. You'll all come around soon enough here. Been a rough year for the "win now" crowd and it's gonna get rougher.

This trade may have delayed us a full year from being a contender. And people loved it. We've got an entire 5-7 year rebuild phase to remind them how much they loved it, and other trades like it.

[mile]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Toffoli gone, never got us anywhere.


Heineman now knocking on the door.

Another year and we'll have a sense of the 2022 first rounders we missed out on.



I'm assuming a bunch on here still thought sacrificing our future was a great move.


It's going to get a lot more debatable this season. And next season. And the season after that.


All for a rental that got us nowhere.


I fully admit, this was not BT's worst trade lol. there were many trades which were far, far worse. You'll all come around soon enough here. Been a rough year for the "win now" crowd and it's gonna get rougher.

This trade may have delayed us a full year from being a contender. And people loved it. We've got an entire 5-7 year rebuild phase to remind them how much they loved it, and other trades like it.

this makes a lot of sense thank you for sharing